Ep 115 | Harold Joyner, Fence World | November 30, 2018
Harold Joyner is the president of the 43 year old company, Fence World. Their website boasts, “We love our community and enjoy giving back whenever we can.” Most recently, Fence World provided fence rebuilding services to the Central Arkansas Boys and Girls Club. Each year, they donate over a mile of temporary fencing product to the Little Rock Marathon. Most recently, they donated custom, iron fencing to the Little Rock Junior League.
Harold and his wife, Jeannie, are big believers in community service. This past year, for the University of Arkansas, they created “The Joyner Family Endowed Scholarship” for incoming students who have demonstrated volunteer and community service. Special preference is given to applicants who’ve been involved in the Boys & Girls Club of Central Arkansas. Harold Joyner has been a volunteer coach for the Boys & Girls Club for years.
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EPISODE 116
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:07.9] SR: Welcome to Up In Your Business with Kerry McCoy. A production of flagandbanner.com. Through storytelling and conversational interviews, this weekly radio show offers listeners firsthand insight into starting and running a business. The ups and downs of risk taking and the commonalities of successful people.
Connect with Kerry through her candid, often funny and informative weekly blog where you’ll read and can comment on life as wife, mother, daughter and entrepreneur.
Now, it’s time for Kerry McCoy to get all up in your business.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:42.0] KM: Thank you Jason, like Jason said, I’m Kerry McCoy and it’s time for me to get up in your business. Before we start, I want to introduce my newest cohost who you just heard from. Jason Malik. He’s not really new to the show, his company, Arise Studios in Conway Arkansas has been behind the scene, recording our show and making podcasts available for a long time.
But when Chris Canon, my last cohost, left Arkansas and went to pursue his career in I think he said Tennessee, it was a natural fit for Jason to move from behind of the scenes to the hot seat. Today, not only will Jason be recording a podcast if you’re watching on Facebook, you see he is as busy as he can be.
He not only will be recording a podcast to be made available next week, he will also be managing the board and taking your calls. Say hello Jason.
[0:01:31.9] JASON: Hello.
[0:01:33.6] KM: I’ve already introduced everybody. If right now you’re sitting at your computer, you might want to watch us live on flagandbanner.com’s Facebook page, it’s kind of fun to see what goes on behind the scenes and at the breaks, it’s real time reality radio, we were just cutting up and waving everybody on Facebook right before we went on the air. If for some reason you miss any part of the show today, want to hear it again or share it, there is a way.
Jason will tell you how.
[0:02:00.9] JASON: Listen to all UIYB past and present interviews by going to flagandbanner.com and then click on radio show. Also, by joining our email list or liking us on Facebook, you’ll get a reminder notification that day of the show with a sneak peak of that day’s guest. Back to you Kerry.
[0:02:18.0] KM: This show up in your business with Kerry McCoy began as a platform for me, a small business owner and a guest to pay it forward, our experiential knowledge in a conversational way. Originally, my team and I thought it would speak to entrepreneurs and wannabe entrepreneurs but it seems to have had a wider audience appeal because after all, who isn’t inspired by everyday people’s American made stories?
To see people in their totality is humanizing. We all thirst to connect and make sense of an overcomplicated world and on this show, we have the luxury of time to go deeper than a mere sound byte or headline. It’s not secret that successful people work hard but other common traits found in many of my guest are the heart of a teacher, belief in a higher power and creativity.
Because business in of itself is creative. My guest today, Mr. Harold Joiner checks all the aforementioned boxes. He is a hard worker, having founded his company Fitz World, right after college, he has the heart of a teacher, evident by his over 30 years volunteerism at the Boys Club of central Arkansas where he has been a baseball coach, a basketball coach and now serves on the board and more recently, he and his wife Jeanie founded the Joiner Family Scholarship Fund for the University of Arkansas’ incoming students. And because I see him at church every Sunday, I assume he believes in a higher power or at least he’s working on it.
Last, he is creative. To stay in business for 30 plus years which he has, you must be creative. In the last four decades, business has seen the deregulation of the telecommunication and banking industries, been through two wars, two recessions and a .com boom. Not to mention, just the designing and installation of fences of any kind is a creative puzzle. It is a pleasure to welcome to the table, the quiet and smart man with a big heart. Mr. Harold Joiner.
[0:04:14.9] HJ: Thank you so much for having me today.
[0:04:16.9] KM: Hey Harold, are your parents entrepreneurs?
[0:04:21.1] HJ: My dad was yes.
[0:04:21.9] KM: What did he do?
[0:04:23.3] HJ: My dad was in the construction business.
[0:04:24.6] KM: You’re kind in the construction business.
[0:04:26.2] HJ: Yes. He was heavy construction, built roads and bridges.
[0:04:30.2] KM: He’s an engineer.
[0:04:32.3] HJ: No, wasn’t an engineer, just worked hard and started his own company when I was in high school. Joiner Cranford Construction company.
[0:04:42.7] KM: You watched?
[0:04:44.2] HJ: I did. I built a lot of fences for that company early on, a lot of highway fences which is no fun at all but hard work.
[0:04:54.0] KM: I think it’s good for young men to do that kind of hard work.
[0:04:58.2] HJ: It is.
[0:04:59.0] KM: It helps you with your work ethic.
[0:05:00.8] HJ: My 15th birthday, I went to work for a fence company, Allied Fence out here in Little Rock. I don’t think they’re still around but I did that all through high school.
[0:05:13.0] KM: You watched your father start his business and then you went to college, saying “I’m never going to build a fence again,” probably.
[0:05:19.8] HJ: Yes, exactly.
[0:05:22.5] KM: What did you major in?
[0:05:24.0] HJ: Business.
[0:05:26.8] KM: Did you get an MBA or just four years?
[0:05:28.9] HJ: Just four years.
[0:05:29.4] KM: Did you go to the University of Arkansas?
[0:05:30.7] HJ: I did, I went to University of Little Rock and then transferred to Southern Methodist for a couple of years.
[0:05:35.7] KM: Southern Methodist, SMU in Dallas, you know, that’s called the Southern Millionaire University. You do know that, don’t you?
[0:05:43.9] HJ: I do now. I know what you’re talking about.
[0:05:47.7] KM: That’s the nickname for SMU.
[0:05:49.1] HJ: It is, it was a good school.
[0:05:51.2] KM: It is a great school. The Mustangs.
[0:05:52.8] HJ: Yes.
[0:05:54.3] KM: You’re surprised I know that probably?
[0:05:55.8] HJ: No.
[0:05:59.0] KM: You met your wife at SMU?
[0:06:01.1] HJ: At UALR when I came back to UA Little Rock, they say UA Little Rock now.
[0:06:06.4] KM: Yeah, they changed it.
[0:06:08.7] HJ: But we met when I returned to Little Rock from Dallas, we went on a blind date.
[0:06:16.6] KM: Really?
[0:06:19.6] HJ: We’ve been going out ever since that first night.
[0:06:21.6] KM: You don’t hear about very many blind dates working out.
[0:06:25.5] HJ: This one did.
[0:06:26.2] KM: Yeah, for 30 something years, I think.
[0:06:30.9] HJ: 37 this year.
[0:06:32.0] KM: You better get right, she’s listening.
[0:06:36.6] HJ: We’ll have been together 39 but this will be 37 years, that we will have been married in December.
[0:06:42.2] KM: You went to school at the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville, is that right? Or in Little Rock?
[0:06:45.9] HJ: Little Rock.
[0:06:46.5] KM: Then you went to SMU in Dallas and then you came back to school?
[0:06:49.6] HJ: And finished up at UA Little Rock.
[0:06:53.5] KM: I’m not even going to ask you why all that kept happening because you’re a college kid and who knows?
[0:06:59.7] HJ: Right.
[0:07:02.0] KM: When you decided to get married, you had two sons and were you building fences for Allied at that time?
[0:07:08.8] HJ: I started – my senior year at UA Little Rock, I was building fences, I was subcontracting. I bought an old pickup truck. I actually built fences when I was in Dallas. Then I bought an old pickup and started subcontracting for allied and SEARS. SEARS and Road Buck which most people don’t think of them as a fence company but at the time, they were the largest fence company in the United States.
They installed products, roofing, gutters, all types of things. I did that until I graduated in ‘81 and the same year I formed Fence World and that’s – our first son was born in ‘85 and our second son was born in – I was married in ‘81, the same year I graduated and started Fence World.
[0:08:03.8] KM: You got married in what year?
[0:08:04.7] HJ: ‘81.
[0:08:05.7] KM: You had your first son when?
[0:08:06.9] HJ: ‘85.
[0:08:08.7] KM: You started Fence World in?
[0:08:10.6] HJ: ‘81.
[0:08:13.0] KM: I was thinking that you started fence world closer to when you had your son, I was going to say, that was probably risky business thinking “I have a son and I’m just going to start out on my own.” By the time you had your son, you were feeling pretty good about your business?
[0:08:24.3] HJ: Well yes, I was doing a lot of highway work which I mentioned earlier, I wasn’t feeling that great about but in 1988, a year after my second son was born, then I started doing some commercial work here in Little Rock for a company and that’s really changed things.
[0:08:45.7] KM: Highway department fences. Are those the concrete blocks that you see?
[0:08:51.2] HJ: No, that’s kind of a new thing. The highway barrier fences along the medians are pretty new, I’ve never really built any of those. Years ago, some – well, not as strong of that type of fence but most of them were just –
[0:09:11.7] KM: Chain link?
[0:09:12.6] HJ: Well, they’re field fences, controlled access fences on the side of the interstate on the rider way.
[0:09:18.4] KM: They’re not really to protect you from running into each other just barriers to keep from going down the wrong road. You know it wasn’t crowded with as many people on the road as there is today?
[0:09:26.6] HJ: Right.
[0:09:27.1] KM: You didn’t have to worry about as many people, you know, changing lanes or going into head on traffic.
[0:09:32.8] HJ: Well, the fences, the ones that we built then, the highway fences were mostly for access, to keep farmers from driving their tractors up on the highway. Controlling the access to people getting up on animals of the highway and so –
[0:09:48.4] KM: Like out in the rural areas. See, I’m thinking downtown on I30 or something.
[0:09:52.4] HJ: Barrier fences that are in the medians which I can’t imagine having to work at the median of an interstate.
[0:10:03.4] KM: You’ve decided to have another son, or you have another son?
[0:10:05.7] HJ: Yes.
[0:10:07.6] KM: Business is doing good to either one of them work with you?
[0:10:10.3] HJ: They don’t. My oldest son lives in San Francisco with his wife. Jonathan and Lauren and my younger son Jason lives in Richmond Virginia with his life Liza.
[0:10:22.8] KM: Did your father have anything to do with you starting that business you think? The fact that he was an entrepreneur and you watched it?
[0:10:28.2] HJ: He had a friend that owned the fence company that I’d met and right before my 15th birthday, I asked my dad if I could go work for him and he said if I’d cut my hair and shave my beard then he’d hire me. So I called the chief at the Allied Fence company, went to work for him.
[0:10:44.7] KM: Some things just never change, right? “If you won’t cut your hair and shave your beard,” I’m going to say that to you Jason, look at him over there.
[0:10:56.3] JASON: What you picking on your new cohost for? I got this job with long hair and a beard.
[0:11:02.0] KM: That’s right.
[0:11:02.9] HJ: I did on my 15th birthday, went to work for Allied and then I did that during until about the time I graduated from high school and then that’s when I started subcontracting through college.
[0:11:15.7] KM: You just got the entrepreneurial spirit in you all the way?
[0:11:18.5] HJ: I pretty much worked for myself since I was about 18, I guess.
[0:11:24.0] KM: You think college helped you at all?
[0:11:27.4] HJ: Incredible help. My degree is in Business Management. My senior year I have a small business administration class and the thing, our assignment for the semester as my senior year was to follow a business the entire semester and I asked the professor if instead of following a business, if I could create a business to follow? I pretty much created the mold of Fence World while I was in college in senior year.
When I graduated, that’s when I – that’s what I did.
[0:11:59.0] KM: That is so smart. I hope that everybody’s listening to that, just take your opportunities at college to do something real.
[0:12:07.3] HJ: Yes, college is important. I mean, it’s not for everyone, I mean, if you take advantage of it. I think right now, there’s things I would do completely different in college.
[0:12:19.7] KM: Like what? Not drink?
[0:12:23.7] HJ: That’s one of the things. I probably would have gone to law school. Thinking back.
[0:12:31.9] KM: You like to read a lot?
[0:12:33.1] HJ: I do. My younger son’s an attorney in Richmond and I always thought that I would be, thought that I would be a good attorney and my friends accused me of practicing law in my business because all business people tend to practice law at times.
[0:12:49.6] KM: Yeah, what type of an attorney would you be?
[0:12:54.0] HJ: You know, I don’t know.
[0:12:56.0] KM: You do, too.
[0:12:57.3] HJ: I’ll probably be a trial lawyer.
[0:12:58.7] KM: Would you really be a trial lawyer?
[0:13:02.1] HJ: That’s probably what I would have done.
[0:13:03.3] KM: What kind of cases would you like?
[0:13:05.9] HJ: I don’t’ know. Ones you saw on television.
[0:13:09.5] KM: Those are murders. You want to be a murder trial lawyer?
[0:13:13.9] HJ: No, not necessarily.
[0:13:15.0] KM: Golly, you are such an oxymoron, he doesn’t look like that at all.
[0:13:21.0] HJ: You know, it would have – I just think that it would have been interesting to study the law and to –
[0:13:30.6] KM: Try cases?
[0:13:31.7] HJ: Try cases.
[0:13:32.3] KM: Would you work for the state or independent?
[0:13:35.2] HJ: Probably independent I’m sure.
[0:13:37.4] KM: It’s never too late.
[0:13:39.1] HJ: Well, that’s true, I thought about that, I’ve encouraged my wife to go to law school. I think she would have been an incredible attorney.
[0:13:45.7] KM: Ya’ll could have had the same name, Joiner Joiner.
[0:13:48.1] HJ: Well, you know, it’s interesting.
[0:13:48.9] KM: On a law firm. Joiner and Joiner.
[0:13:51.0] HJ: It’s absolutely interesting that there is a law firm in Texas, maybe I shouldn’t say this on the radio but there is a Joiner and Joiner law firm in Texas and they’re two brothers and their name are Jonathan and Jason.
[0:14:06.0] KM: Isn’t that your son’s name?
[0:14:07.2] HJ: That’s my son’s names and they’re around the same age. Maybe a little older and they’re in San Antonio. It’s an incredible coincidence.
[0:14:16.0] KM: Where does your son live?
[0:14:18.4] HJ: Richmond Virginia.
[0:14:20.7] KM: But they’re in San Antonio. That part’s not a coincidence.
[0:14:26.1] HJ: My other son’s not an attorney either so –
[0:14:29.3] KM: Well, you know, this show may be a spring board for you and Jeanie to start – go back to school.
[0:14:35.4] HJ: Probably.
[0:14:36.3] KM: You are a busy guy. This is a great place to take a break. When we come back, we’ll continue our conversation with Mr. Harold Joiner. President and founder of Fence World in Little Rock Arkansas. We’ll talk about him, becoming a lawyer, no, I’m just kidding.
We’ll talk about starting and running your own business. The boys and girls club of central Arkansas which is his passion. He’s very passionate about it and what all it does and how you can get involved if you like or some opportunities there you might take advantage of and we’re going to talk about the Joiner Family Scholarship Fund at the University of Arkansas and who is eligible and how to apply. We’ll be back after the break.
[BREAK]
[0:15:16.4] JASON: You’re listening to Up In Your Business with Kerry McCoy. A production of flagandbanner.com. Over 40 years ago with only $400, Kerry founded Arkansas Flag and Banner. During the last four decades, the business has grown and changed. Starting with door to door sales, then telemarketing, to mail order and catalog sales. Now, a third of their sales come through the internet and this past year, Flag and Banner added another internet feature. Live chatting.
Over time, Kerry’s business and leadership knowledge grew, as early as 2004, she began sharing her knowledge in her week weekly blog and then in 2009, she founded a nonprofit, Friends of Dreamland Ballroom. In 2014, Brave Magazine was launched.
Today, she has branched out into radio with this very production, podcast and live stream on Facebook. Each week on this show, you’ll hear candid conversations between her and her guest about real world experiences on a variety of businesses and topics that we hope you’ll find interesting and inspiring.
If you would like to ask Kerry a question or share your story, send an email to questions@upinyourbusiness.org or send her a message on flagandbanner.com’s Facebook page. Back to you Kerry.
[CONTINUED]
[0:16:42.3] KM: You’re listening to Up In Your Business with me, Kerry McCoy and I’m speaking today with philanthropist Mr. Harold Joiner and founder of Fence World in Little Rock Arkansas. Before the break, we talked about him growing up in an entrepreneurial family. His daddy was in construction and started his own business when he was in high school.
We talked about going to college and how he thinks that it helped him and how he started his business plan for the current business that he has while he was actually in school when the professor or teacher said “Go follow around another business and write about it.”
He said, “Well how about I just do my own business plan and write about the business I want to have.” I thought that was a great suggestion for people to hear. Then we talked about things he’d like to do and I’m even encouraging him and his wife to become lawyers because they’ve got that kind – they both like to read and they’ve got that kind of philosophical and analytical thought process and could really probably do great things like that.
We need good lawyers in the world. Plus, life is long, you’ve only lived half your life probably.
[0:17:45.1] HJ: That’s true, yes.
[0:17:46.2] KM: You’ve got a long ways to go. We talked about starting your business and the idea came from the fact that you started working for your dad in the construction building, building fences and then you went to work for Allied Glass.
[0:17:46.2] HJ: Allied Fence. My dad worked for a construction company and I went to work for a friend of his who owned a fence company. That’s – I just stayed with it. I never –
[0:18:13.4] KM: When did you make the leap to “I’m going to start my own” and did the guy get mad when you started your own?
[0:18:17.3] HJ: No, I did a lot of work for him, a lot of subcontract work for him.
[0:18:22.1] KM: What were the type of fences you were building?
[0:18:23.7] HJ: Back then, it was mainly just residential chain links and wood fences and then moved to a lot of highway fences and then now, a lot of all kinds. Vinyl coated chain links, electric gates, temporary construction fence.
[0:18:41.9] KM: Lots of fences. How many employees you have?
[0:18:44.3] HJ: There’s 12 of us.
[0:18:45.4] KM: There’s only 12 of you all doing all of that?
[0:18:48.4] HJ: Yes, we do a lot of – there are times we might pick-up a couple more during the summer.
[0:18:53.9] KM: That’s just the 12 people in the office?
[0:18:56.3] HJ: No.
[0:18:57.2] KM: Who is going out in the field?
[0:19:00.2] HJ: Not me anymore. I mean, I’m out there looking at fences but I’m not out building fences.
[0:19:04.7] KM: Out of those 12 people, they’re also installing them?
[0:19:06.7] HJ: There’s two of us in the office and 10 installers.
[0:19:13.9] KM: That’s amazing. You do a lot of work for just 10 people. I’ve got 25 employees. I know. It’s kind of like hoarding cats. I would have just thought a construction company would have to have a lot more than that.
[0:19:31.3] HJ: We can do a lot more, we could do a lot more work and hire a lot more people but it’s kind of difficult to –
[0:19:39.7] KM: How did you find this difficult to what?
[0:19:41.6] HJ: What’s that now?
[0:19:41.8] KM: It’s kind of difficult to – I didn’t mean to cut you off.
[0:19:46.8] HJ: To increase the size of your business, hire a lot of more employees and then increase the bottom line at the same time.
[0:19:52.6] KM: Chicken or the egg.
[0:19:53.9] HJ: We found a nice niche. We take care of our customers and instead of going out looking for new customers which we do take new customers, but we primarily focus on taking care of our existing customers.
[0:20:07.2] KM: There’s a lot of repeat business?
[0:20:08.4] HJ: A lot. Several contractors that we take care of a lot.
[0:20:12.5] KM: For construction assignment?
[0:20:15.3] HJ: Then we have individual business, word of mouth, I still have people from high school calling. “You still in the fence business?” “Sure.” “I need a fence.” So most of our residential work is word of mouth, we don’t do much advertising.
[0:20:30.7] KM: I was going to ask you how you got your business. You don’t do much advertising?
[0:20:33.6] HJ: Not really, no.
[0:20:33.8] KM: Word of mouth and you don’t go out for bids for them state highway department and stuff like that?
[0:20:40.4] HJ: We bid with contractors that contact us and say they have a project they want us to give a price for. That’s where most of our work comes from.
[0:20:49.0] JASON: Contractors.
[0:20:49.8] HJ: Contractors. You know, individuals. You hear that I build a fence. You need a fence, you ask someone, they say, “Well call Harold.”
[0:20:59.2] KM: How did you fund your startup, or did you need to fund it or did you just need a telephone?
[0:21:05.3] HJ: Really, started of with just really nothing, you know? An old truck and the desire to work.
[0:21:14.6] KM: Just started putting money in the bank?
[0:21:17.0] HJ: Yes. Just built the first fence and made a few dollars and built the second one and –
[0:21:22.8] KM: Did you have to work a part-time job while you were doing it?
[0:21:25.0] HJ: I did not.
[0:21:26.6] KM: Did your wife have to work, or did she work? Second income coming in?
[0:21:31.0] HJ: She worked part-time in college and then she finished college when we first got married, a couple – she was in school three more years after we were married and then she worked part-time. Actually, she worked full time at first, and then we started having kids and then she stayed home and took care of our kids. Worked a little when the kids were small but not much.
[0:21:54.5] KM: But when you were starting your business, she was working a little bit? That’s a nice thing to do. When I started my business, I had a part-time job. Until you make a little money, you put a little away for the business and then – but you still need some more income so I had a part-time job. I was wondering if your wife was kind of –
[0:22:09.3] HJ: Yeah, she did, she worked. She’s like me, started young working and –
[0:22:18.2] KM: I think it’s kind of a shame that too many young people today don’t get to start work as young as I think we all did. I think it really builds a nice work ethic. Otherwise, you come out of college and you’re in shock. You get your first job and you’re like “Eight hours a day at the same place, are you kidding?”
[0:22:34.3] HJ: “I got to get up at five in the morning?”
[0:22:35.9] KM: I know.
[0:22:37.8] HJ: She’s always been a hard worker. When I say she stayed at home and took care of the kids, she volunteered. She’s been a professional volunteer now for 30 years.
[0:22:52.1] KM: Yeah.
[0:22:52.7] HJ: She’s really involved in more things than I’ve been over the years.
[0:22:59.3] KM: Well you are involved in a lot and we’re going to talk about all of that. Do you have a favorite job or an installation that we might all know and see?
[0:23:07.1] HJ: There’s so many.
[0:23:07.4] KM: Did you do the Osborne fence – that concrete?
[0:23:09.6] HJ: No, we didn’t do that.
[0:23:11.4] KM: Thank you.
[0:23:12.1] HJ: But if you drive around Little Rock, we don’t put signs on our fences just because –
[0:23:18.8] KM: You're not smart, you should put a sign on your fence.
[0:23:21.3] HJ: We should put something. If we did a promo to where we went out tonight and put signs on all the fences, all over Little Rock, people would have car wrecks tomorrow because they’d be wondering where the 10,000 fence signs came from overnight.
Because there are fences all over the place that we –
[0:23:42.6] KM: Harold, really, why don’t you do that?
[0:23:45.4] HJ: Well, I guess we’ll start.
[0:23:45.8] KM: You don’t want any more business? It will definitely get you business, you’ve got a billboard all over town.
[0:23:50.4] HJ: That’s true. In our junior deputy, we redid all those fences 20 something years ago. Episcopal Collegiate school, we put all those fences up.
[0:24:02.6] KM: Well, you don’t want to do it except when you’re in construction. You don’t want to put maybe. Well, I don’t know, I’ve seen Allied Fence used to have little tiny small fences sign. But they were small, we couldn’t see them.
[0:24:11.5] HJ: We put signs up for your small fence signs about six by eight sign.
[0:24:15.9] KM: Because if something goes wrong with it and you got a new owner living there, they’d like to know who to call.
[0:24:19.7] HJ: That’s true.
[0:24:20.8] KM: You know, for repairs and they’re like, “Who did this fence? There they are, right there.”
[0:24:25.3] HJ: Yeah, there’s a lot of signs out there but you don’t see a Fence World sign. Occasionally, there’s one here and there but not on every fence.
[0:24:36.1] KM: What’s the hardest thing about your business?
[0:24:40.5] HJ: I would say two things. One, in the past, it was always digging holes in the ground because there’s a lot of rock. It’s just hard work, seasonal hard work.
[0:24:52.3] KM: It is seasonal?
[0:24:54.3] HJ: Well, in the summer, you’re really hot and in the winter you're really cold. I guess that’s what I mean by seasonal.
[0:25:01.7] KM: Because the concrete won’t set?
[0:25:03.0] HJ: Well, not so much that, it’s just the elements that you’re out there, that the guys are working.
[0:25:07.3] KM: They just can’t work –
[0:25:08.2] HJ: It’s 105 degree heat index.
[0:25:10.0] JASON: Yeah, I was just going to say, the heat’s got to be brutal.
[0:25:12.9] HJ: You get a guy who works three or four hours and they’re finished. I mean – in the winter when it’s cold and snowy and icy, it’s just – that makes it difficult. Finding the right people, that’s always been the challenge. But we do have good people.
[0:25:32.2] KM: Do you have much turnover in your labor?
[0:25:36.1] HJ: We have turnover in the additional people that we hire.
[0:25:39.8] KM: When you have a big job come in?
[0:25:41.4] HJ: For the most part, we have the same people we’ve had for years.
[0:25:44.2] KM: Your company gives back to the community a lot. I read online or I read on your website that you donated the fence to Little Rock Marathon.
[0:25:51.6] HJ: For years, the last two years, last year was the first year and about 13 years that we didn’t do the fencing for the marathon. Up until then, we were putting up a mile and a half of fence on a Friday afternoon and Saturday or Thursday and Friday. And then on Sunday, we were taking it down.
[0:26:13.5] KM: Your employees got mad at you and said, “You’ve got to quit this Harold!”
[0:26:16.8] HJ: They didn’t like it very much. It took us all for the whole weekend for years.
[0:26:20.4] KM: Okay, enough generosity Harold. Then at junior league?
[0:26:25.9] HJ: We did the new junior league building, we helped them with their fence, yes. Really nice fence around their parking lot.
[0:26:35.0] KM: The Boys Club, your favorite place in the world, I think maybe.
[0:26:38.5] HJ: The Boys Club, I originally started, I think it was about 26 years ago. I started coaching basketball and I guess it was basketball.
[0:26:49.6] KM: No, baseball.
[0:26:50.9] HJ: Well, it started basketball when Jason was six. Sumner rolled around and we signed him up for baseball. Well, it might have been baseball before basketball but anyway, it was 26 years ago. Coached baseball, started T ball. Which is really fun.
[0:27:14.2] KM: Yeah, it is.
[0:27:17.1] HJ: I coached basketball for about six years and then the kids, they knew more about basketball than I did. My knowledge of basketball ends when you're about 12 years old. The baseball, I continued to do that and then when my sons weren’t in the leagues that I coach, when they moved on to college, I just felt like it was important to continue with this and the RVI league has really been enjoyable coaching the league.
[0:27:48.2] KM: And that is not what the Boys Club is it? That is a separate thing.
[0:27:49.8] HJ: Yes, it is. It is still through the Boys and Girls Club essential arts. So they sponsor it and we play at the Mark Porter Field.
[0:27:57.1] KM: So if you were watching us on Facebook before the show, you know what the RVI league is that he is talking about. It is for inner-city kids. This is going to be a great place to take a break. When we come back, we are going to describe all of that and talk about opportunities for you to get your kids involved, or if you want to get involved and volunteer, we’re going to talk about that too. We are also going to talk about the Joiner Family Scholarship Fund who is eligible and how to apply and this too has to do with volunteers and I believe it is how you become eligible but Harold will tell us more and why he believes we should invest in our youth.
But first, I want to remind everybody we are broadcasting live every Friday afternoon at 2 PM central time on KABF 88.3 FM the voice of the people radio station. We’re also broadcasting on your desktop application and at flagandbanner.com Facebook page.
And that after one week of every show airing a podcast is made available on all popular listening sites and YouTube. When we come back, the rest of the story.
[BREAK]
[0:29:01.0] ANNOUNCER: Flagandbanner.com is proud to underwrite Up In Your Business with Kerry McCoy, where listeners are offered first hand insight into the humanity and commonalities of successful people shared in a conversational interview with Kerry. Along with this radio show, flagandbanner.com publishes a free bi-annual magazine called Brave.
First published in October of 2014, Brave Magazine harnesses the power of storytelling and human empowerment. The Department of Arkansas Heritage recognized Brave Magazine’s documentation of American life and micro fishes all additions for the Arkansas State Archives. Subscribe to this free periodical by going to flagandbanner.com and selecting “Magazine.”
Back to you Kerry.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[0:29:47.2] KM: They have no way of telling you on the station but I can tell you – is it done? Oh sorry, you’re listening to Up – we are over here just having a gay ‘ol time over here. Okay, we’re back. You are listening to Up In Your Business with me, Kerry McCoy, and I am speaking today with philanthropist Mr. Harold Joyner and founder of Fence World in Little Rock, Arkansas. He is also a lover of the Boys and Girls Club where he is a volunteer. He loves – what is that place called, Access for? What’s that a school?
[0:30:16.6] HJ: Access Group.
[0:30:17.4] KM: Access Group for challenged children, mentally challenged children, is that a way of saying it?
[0:30:22.2] HJ: Developmentally disabled children. I have been on that board for 10 years. I have been able to help them in one, my being on the board but also, we’ve recently helped them with some really nice fences around. The campus on Breckenridge, the original campus and then a couple of years ago we bought the old Christian church on Mississippi and turned that into our new campus.
[0:30:49.7] KM: Awesome, we are also going to talk about your scholarship that you started. It is going to be available on 2019 but I want to tell our listeners that if you’ve got questions or want to make a comment on flagandbanner.com’s Facebook page you can call by writing this number down and calling –
[0:31:04.9] JASON: 501-433-0088.
[0:31:08.4] KM: Again Jayson.
[0:31:08.9] JASON: 501-433-0088.
[0:31:12.9] KM: He talks fast, 433-0088. If you’re shy you can just creep on my weekly blog about life as a small business owner at flagandbanner.com or as I said earlier, you can listen to any of our podcasts by clicking on flagandbanner.com and choosing Radio Show. Before the break, we talked about starting his business, we talked about Harold Joiner starting his business and now we are going to talk about his newest passion, the Boys Club at Central Arkansas.
He told us he started at necessity because he wanted his kids to play baseball I think you asked the Boys Club if they did it and they said, “Why won’t you start doing that?” and I think that is how you got started. So tell us exactly how that came to be?
[0:32:01.6] HJ: Well I went over to Penick Boys Club to sign the kids up for baseball and basketball and Greg Morris, unfortunately he’s no longer with us anymore. He passed away about a year or so ago, an incredible man. He had been at Penick for over 30 years but Greg gave me my first coaching job and for years, I coached at the clubs and then I began doing work. Jay Rogers was sports top who is a trustee for the Lamar Porter field and is also on the board of directors. He called me for fence projects and then that turned into just giving them fences and so then about 10 years ago, I got put on the board of directors for the Boys and Girls Club.
[0:33:03.1] KM: Elected.
[0:33:04.3] HJ: Elected, yes and then –
[0:33:05.2] KM: There you go, elected, but you played baseball.
[0:33:07.2] HJ: I did, I played a bit.
[0:33:08.4] KM: So you know about baseball?
[0:33:09.3] HJ: I do.
[0:33:09.8] KM: Did you play in college?
[0:33:10.7] HJ: I didn’t, no.
[0:33:12.0] KM: But you just loved it.
[0:33:12.8] HJ: I do. I love it. I played here in Little Rock when I was growing up with Rosedale Optimus Club and then played American Legion Baseball for three years and then I should have continued in college but I didn’t, but I needed to work so.
[0:33:31.8] KM: Well you get to live vicariously through your kids. Do any of them play baseball?
[0:33:34.5] HJ: The boys played four sports, they were really good athletes. None of them played college but they did play baseball, football, basketball and soccer.
[0:33:44.5] KM: Well you look like you’d come from good stock.
[0:33:46.1] HJ: Well thank you.
[0:33:47.2] KM: You do, you look like you could be on the line of a football team.
[0:33:51.9] HJ: Well I played a little football in high school. I just played longer and thinking back maybe one of the things I would have done is stayed in sports a little bit longer.
[0:34:02.8] KM: So why do you think sports are important for young men?
[0:34:05.4] HJ: I think it is very important for being on a team, for being involved with the team aspect to where you are a part of something, you are a part of the team. I think individual sports are important also, tennis and golf, but I think you put the aspect of playing on a team, it’s just you learn about team work.
[0:34:30.0] KM: It is hard to play with others. I mean just in general, it is hard to get along with them. You have to have a lot of forgiveness.
[0:34:36.7] HJ: Well you do, it is important but –
[0:34:39.0] KM: So learn it early.
[0:34:40.1] HJ: I think a lot of times especially in our RBI league, we have kids that don’t really know how to play baseball. They just want to play and we have a spot for them. Everybody gets to play and what happens in our league is some of the older kids act as mentors to these younger kids and they tend to take them under their wing, and they tend to reach out and try to teach them. You know try to explain to them what to do when the ball’s hit to them.
[0:35:09.7] KM: What’s the demographics of the people there at the Boys and Girls Club?
[0:35:13.4] HJ: When we say inner-city kids, we have kids from all the different high schools from all over Little Rock and North Little Rock, actually Central Arkansas.
[0:35:22.4] KM: It is a melting pot?
[0:35:23.5] HJ: Yes it is.
[0:35:24.4] KM: Because my grandson plays basketball there.
[0:35:26.5] HJ: Yes, well we have the Boys Club, the Penick Boys Club has a fascinating basketball program and has for years and years. The other clubs all have teams and we have basketball and baseball. We’re starting softball, girls’ softball and volleyball and soccer out at the Whetstone Club. So there’s lots of opportunities and the Boys and Girls Club – people even I thought that it was athletics but –
[0:35:58.6] KM: That is what I was going say, is it only athletics?
[0:36:00.1] HJ: It is so much more than that. It is mentoring kids, it is tutoring kids, it’s feeding kids, giving kids to have an opportunity to have a safe place to go and just go after school and play and just be kids and feel safe and that is awesome. You know there’s so many things. I mean there is a summer reading programs, there’s STEM education.
[0:36:23.6] KM: Do they help with the homework?
[0:36:25.5] HJ: Yes, they do.
[0:36:26.8] KM: So you know I had Clark Tucker on and he talked about the development of children in their ages and if you put the money and you put the time and energy into children from birth until eight or 10 years old, that it would change society astronomically. It would lower our taxes, it would lower our crime, it would increase our education, increase the job work force.
[0:36:52.2] HJ: I agree, I really agree with that. If we are proactive instead of reactive we start building these head start programs, if we start putting in facilities for kids to have opportunities from birth to eight like you say, we build these facilities and we invest in these children and our prisons, we would change the face of America as far as how many people were in prison.
[0:37:25.4] KM: Which would save tax payers so much money and would lower crime. So we had a group, you and I go to church together I said it at the beginning of the show, and were you there when we had that group come that helps mentor gentleman that come out of prison?
[0:37:42.3] HJ: Yes.
[0:37:42.6] KM: What is the name of that group, do you remember?
[0:37:44.7] HJ: I am not sure but I know that Walter Hussman is really involved in that.
[0:37:48.6] KM: Yeah but one of the men that stood up and it was both African-American and Caucasian and a white man stood up and he said, “I had no mentor and when I got out of jail, I went to this program that we are talking about” and he said, “I learned what a man looked like” he said, “I had no idea what a man looked like. I didn’t know what a father looked like, I didn’t know what a husband looked like, I didn’t really know what work was and what was expected of work.”
And he said, “After a year of this, I begin to see what a real man looked like because I didn’t know” and he is a 30-year-old man.
[0:38:24.4] HJ: It is all about education. I mean education is so important and that is what my wife Jeannie and I –
[0:38:30.7] KM: You need mentors.
[0:38:31.6] HJ: Yes, yeah we have to be really involved in it.
[0:38:33.8] KM: So this is what Clark Tucker said, I am going to quote from him from the interview because when I heard you were coming on, I thought about Clark. He says, “The earlier the better to get to help children.” He said, “I mean I can give you some facts that will blow your mind. This is one that I heard, and I may get it off slightly but what I heard one day is “That if the human body grew at the same rate as the human brain, then at one-month-old the human would weigh a 170 pounds.”
[0:39:00.0] HJ: Wow.
[0:39:02.1] KM: “The brain, 85% of the cognitive development takes place by the 5th birthday and we spend 95% of our public education dollars after the 5th birthday.” So we got that backwards.
[0:39:15.9] HJ: Yes. Yes, we really do. We have to concentrate on children and I have always said regardless of what their parents have done or not done, we have to make our children a priority in this country.
[0:39:32.0] KM: But I don’t think America can parent everybody. So maybe it is I don’t know how you teach a parent how to parent if they weren’t parented. I am not sure what the solution is but the Boys Club is a good start at it. What is the senior RBI? Is that part of the Boys Club or is that something you started? Tell our listeners what that is.
[0:39:49.7] HJ: Well, I guess about 16 years ago Dr. Wayne Grace started the RBI Program here in Little Rock and his was the 13 through 15-year-olds and my son Jason was in that league for a couple of years and then there was no league after that. So that is when I started the 16 through 18, the senior RBI league.
[0:40:13.3] KM: What is a senior league?
[0:40:15.7] HJ: Well it just means that they are the older kids that they are 16, 17, 18.
[0:40:18.8] KM: They are not like my age senior. I was like, “I don’t want to play baseball” but go ahead.
[0:40:23.2] HJ: We have a lot of young men that go off to college in their freshman year and come back and still play and we have guys that come back when they’re 20 and say, “Can I still play?” and what we do is we try to fill them in occasionally but we try to utilize them in other areas.
[0:40:44.4] KM: And how does that help society? It is inner-city kids?
[0:40:45.3] HJ: Oh, it gives them an opportunity to participate in something during summer, you know it is a summer activity.
[0:40:55.2] KM: Is it free?
[0:40:55.8] HJ: For a lot of the kids we have scholarships. It is about $60 to sign up.
[0:41:07.2] KM: How long does it last?
[0:41:09.4] HJ: We start at the end of April and we finish the first of August.
[0:41:11.2] KM: Well that is pretty cheap.
[0:41:13.4] HJ: Yes it is.
[0:41:15.4] KM: That’s like $15 a month.
[0:41:17.7] HJ: And if there’s a problem with the fees then we wave those fees. We have scholarships.
[0:41:22.4] KM: Or you’ll pay it Harold. I know you. Just ask him, he will give you 60 bucks.
[0:41:25.7] HJ: We just want the kids to come out. We have this incredible field Lamar Porter, we have raised over $600,000 to revitalize Lamar Porter.
[0:41:36.4] KM: Is Lamar on Woodlawn, Woodrow?
[0:41:38.2] HJ: It is on Capitol.
[0:41:41.5] KM: Yes in Stifft Station.
[0:41:43.7] HJ: Yes.
[0:41:44.4] KM: So I was driving by there just this week and a bunch of kids right at dark came out in baseball. Is that you or are there other people that play there?
[0:41:57.5] HJ: Catholic High and Episcopal Collegiate use that field during the school year and in the – I guess in the spring and the fall they use the field to practice. The RBI uses it during the summer time.
[0:42:12.7] KM: I got you.
[0:42:13.7] HJ: And we, the committee that raised all of this money, really generous donations, Kristen and Cliff Lee were really generous. The community reached out and helped and we were able to do some things to make the – the ball park is historic. It is on the historic registry and it is an incredible facility to play baseball.
[0:42:34.5] KM: It is right here and easy to get to, right off the 633 way. I am so glad you are doing that. I want to just tell everybody to take a quick break. Tell everybody, you are listening to Up In Your Business with me, Kerry McCoy and I am speaking today with philanthropist Mr. Harold Joyner and founder of Fence World in Little Rock Arkansas and the lover of baseball and the Boys Club. I just read that in 2019 you started the Joyner Family Scholarship. How did that come to be?
[0:43:01.8] HJ: Yes, well about two years ago, UALR, UA Little Rock reached out to me to be on their foundation fund board and that board is designed to set up scholarships for kids through the school and through working with Christian O’Neil there, we just realized how important it was to set up a scholarship, that way we could endow scholarship to where the kids – it would always be there. It would be something that would just fund the kids going to school there forever.
[0:43:42.3] KM: So you have to qualify for it though.
[0:43:46.2] HJ: Yes and one of the things we want a kid who’s a young person, a young man or woman who is involved in community service.
[0:43:52.5] KM: You can call them a kid.
[0:43:54.3] HJ: Well it is enough.
[0:43:56.5] KM: It’s kids, it’s young adults.
[0:43:59.9] HJ: Young adults that they have been involved in community service with the special emphasis on one that has been involved in the Boys and Girls Club. If there is not someone that is qualified in particular a year, we would still give the scholarship out.
[0:44:14.0] KM: Really?
[0:44:15.4] HJ: Yes and it is through UA Little Rock.
[0:44:18.9] KM: But not everybody that applies gets the scholarship.
[0:44:21.5] HJ: No.
[0:44:21.6] KM: You have to have proved that you have done a lot of voluntarism and service work with special preferential treatment to people, to the youth, to the young adult who volunteered at the Boys Club sector.
[0:44:37.4] HJ: Or who grew up through the clubs and who is a club kid.
[0:44:41.6] KM: Did you have a hard time convincing your family that you are going to give their inheritance away?
[0:44:46.3] HJ: No, they are incredibly generous. You know that is one of the things that when I was 30 years old that I didn’t have the resources or the time to be able to volunteer and you know then about 35 I guess is when I started coaching. Well I didn’t have the resources at that point and what I am seeing happening in our community is a younger generation is getting involved in the philanthropic part of what is going on in our community. And if we can get these younger folks involved at a younger age then they will get a 10, 15-year head start on what I was able to do.
[0:45:34.2] KM: The millennials are wonderful.
[0:45:36.2] HJ: I think it is really important that they see their family doing it and when they see their family doing it they think, “Well I want to do that” and you know most young folks are tied up building their careers and their families but if they see how important it is, if they have been a part of that.
[0:45:58.2] KM: In their teenage years.
[0:45:59.5] HJ: Both of my boys coached for three years in the RBI League, the younger league, while they were going to college. Jason in high school and college and then Jonathan when he was in college and it meant so much to them because I think it impacted them probably as much or more as it impacted the young kids they were coaching.
[0:46:23.1] KM: I agree 100%, paying it forward will impact you so much.
[0:46:28.0] HJ: And so I am really happy that they were able to do that.
[0:46:30.6] KM: They got to see what it’s like to be a man. That very thing that we are talking about, what does it look like? It looks like that.
[0:46:36.7] HJ: Well my wife told me years ago that I had four eyes watching everything that I do and now, I am thinking I have thousands of eyes watching everything that I do and it is important that what I do is important.
[0:46:50.1] KM: So the four eyes were her and two kids.
[0:46:53.2] HJ: Well the four eyes were the two boys and now it’s the entire community. It is important that what I do is good.
[0:47:04.6] KM: All right, you are a wonderful person. Thank you so much for coming on. I want to ask you, how do people apply for your scholarship? How do people get involved in the Boys Club and how do people buy from Fence World? Those are the three things that you’ve got to end this show with.
[0:47:20.8] HJ: Well, to start off with, UA Little Rock, since this is the first year I am not specific on exactly how but I will found out exactly what they need to do. They need to contact UA Little Rock, the admissions and they can tell them and they can guide them through that.
[0:47:42.6] KM: You could probably go online at UALR or is it not, UCALR?
[0:47:45.0] HJ: UA Little Rock.
[0:47:45.8] KM: UA Little Rock and you could probably type in the Joyner Family Scholarship and you can probably find out the information there and then they’ll get to meet you because I am sure you shake the hand when you award it to people and then if they want to do the Boys Club, call the Boys Club?
[0:48:02.6] HJ: Call the Boys Club, we have six clubs. Two in North Little Rock and four in Little Rock, just contact our main office.
[0:48:12.3] KM: See what the requirements are if you want to volunteer or you could probably get a list of opportunities there for you children.
[0:48:18.8] HJ: Well there are opportunities online. So the boys and girls it is arkclubs.org and then also we have Little Rock RBI to where we would really like for as many young men as possible to sign up from 13 through 18.
[0:48:39.5] KM: Is that out on the Boys Club website?
[0:48:41.3] HJ: We have our own website. If you just type in Little Rock RBI, it will take you to our website and you can sign up online. I am not sure if you can sign up now for next year but about the first of April, you can start signing up.
[0:48:57.5] KM: When the weather gets nice.
[0:48:58.8] HJ: The weather gets nice it’s time for baseball but yes, lots of opportunities.
[0:49:05.8] KM: Well, what do you get out of this?
[0:49:08.4] HJ: You know, it’s just doing something good. Just being a part of something that’s good that makes a difference and helps our community and it impacts our community.
[0:49:22.0] KM: I wish everybody could see your face when I said that because it kind of got red and he was like, you could just tell that you get so much out of this. It makes you very emotional. Thank you, Harold.
[0:49:31.8] HJ: Thank you so much.
[0:49:32.9] KM: Yeah, thank you. Here Harold, I have a gift for you. Thank you for coming on.
[0:49:35.4] HJ: Oh, well thank you so much.
[0:49:36.6] KM: Desk set from Arkansas Flag and Banner, US and Arkansas Flag that will look good in your office.
[0:49:40.7] HJ: It will. I mean wonderful and thank you so much for all you do. I know you are busy in the community and what you’re doing here is important and impactful and I just really applaud what you are doing.
[0:49:56.0] KM: Thank you.
[0:49:56.5] HJ: And thank you guys both so much for letting me be a part of it.
[0:49:59.1] KM: You are so welcome. It’s been a pleasure to spend an hour with you. Jayson thank you for coming on, how was your first day?
[0:50:04.4] JASON: I really enjoyed it.
[0:50:06.4] KM: He did good didn’t he Harold?
[0:50:07.1] HJ: He did very good.
[0:50:08.3] JASON: I’m trying.
[0:50:08.7] KM: So who is our guest next week?
[0:50:10.3] JASON: I do believe it is Georgia from Our House, the state of the art homeless shelter here in Little Rock, is that a replay?
[0:50:19.0] KM: It’s a replay. Georgia has retired but her legacy lives on. She was there for I don’t know, almost 20 years. Harold, do you know Georgia from Our House?
[0:50:29.9] HJ: I don’t think I knew her.
[0:50:31.0] KM: She’s like you. She just gives and gives and gives to the community.
[0:50:34.0] HJ: I probably met her because we have done some things with them.
[0:50:36.6] KM: Yeah, well of course you have. You’ve done something for everybody but we are going to replay her because it’s the giving season and I thought this was a good time to have Harold on to talk about giving and it is a good time to replay hers because she talks about giving and how you can give to Our House. It is a homeless shelter for women, children and men and if you, Jayson, would like to tell our listeners how they can be a part of the show.
[0:51:08.1] JASON: If you have a great entrepreneurial story that you would like to share with Kerry, you could send a brief bio to questions@upyourbusiness.org. Message on Facebook.com at flagandbanner.com/Facebook or make a comment on her blog.
[0:51:24.9] KM: That is three easy ways to get in touch with me and lastly, I want to tell our listeners, thank you for spending time with us. If you think this program has been about you, you are right but it’s also been for us. Thank you for letting me fulfill our destiny. We hope today that you’ve heard or learned something that’s been inspiring or enlightening and that it, whatever it is, will help you up your business, your independence, or your life.
I’m Kerry McCoy and I’ll see you next time on Up In Your Business. Until then, be brave and keep it up.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:52:00.0] ANNOUNCER: You’ve been listening to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy, a production of flagandbanner.com. If you missed any part of this show or want to learn more about UIYB, go to flagandbanner.com and click on “Radio Show” or subscribe to her weekly podcast to wherever you like to listen. All interviews are recorded and posted the following week with links to resources you heard discussed on today’s show. Kerry’s goal is to help you live the American Dream.
[SPONSOR MESSAGE]
[0:52:36.8] AM: Arkansas Flag and Banner is proud to underwrite Up In Your Business with Kerry McCoy. McCoy began this broadcast with the intention of offering a mentoring platform for those with an entrepreneurial spirit. Through candid conversations and interesting interviews with business and community minded Arkansans, listeners gain insight into starting and running a business, the ups and downs of risk taking and the commonalities of successful people.
Kerry McCoy, founder and president of Arkansas Flag and Banner, believes in paying knowledge and experience forward and developed this radio show as a means of doing so. The biographies, life experiences and wisdom of her guests would likely go unheard if not for this venue. Rarely do people open up for an hour to an audience about their life, mistakes, triumphs and pitfalls. This unique radio show allows the listener intimate access into the stories of prominent leaders in our state.
I am Adrienne McNally, manager of the Arkansas Flag and Banner showroom and gift shop, located on the first floor of the historic Taborian Hall on the corner of 9th and State Street in downtown Little Rock, Arkansas. In business for 43 years, we offer an old school shopping experience with front door parking, clerks to help you and department store variety. Open Monday through Friday, 8 to 5:30 and Saturday, 10 to 4.
