Transcript Begins: 

EPISODE 321

 

EPISODE 321

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:09] GM: Welcome to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy, a production of flagandbanner.com. Through storytelling and conversational interviews, this weekly radio show and podcast offers listeners an insider's view into the commonalities of successful people and the ups and downs of risk taking. And now it's time for Kerry McCoy to get all up in your business.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:00:29] KM: Our guest today was the center of attention in Kenneth Starr's 1994 media-frenzied trial of President Clinton and the Whitewater investigation, Miss Susan McDougal. As a young lady, this small town, Ouachita Baptist College student, was swept off her feet by the flamboyant, worldly and well-read campus professor, Mr. Jim Dougal. After a whirlwind courtship filled with impressive parties and introductions to important politicians and successful businessman, Susan found herself married to Jim, a man much older than herself, who, unknowingly to both of them at the time, suffered from a mental illness that would later be diagnosed as bipolar disorder.

In her book aptly titled The Girl That Wouldn't Talk, Susan tells her side of the story from the beginning of her life in Camden, Arkansas, to finding herself shackled and jailed in no less than seven prisons over a two-year period, a cruel tactic known as diesel therapy by the prosecution. This is a disheartening story and eye-opener into the abuse of judicial power, fake media and corrupt politics. But it is also a story of how one woman took a stand to speak no more and unexpectedly took her life back.

It is my great pleasure to welcome to the table and microphone, the strong, courageous, well-read, and a once too naive young lady, the notable Miss Susan McDougal.

[00:02:01] SM: I think we're done. I think that's all we need to know. I myself, I'm impressed. And the marriage sounds so much more fun than it actually was at the time. Jim was 14 years older than me. That's really not that much older. He just looked old.

[00:02:20] KM: That's pretty much old. That’s pretty old. How old were you? 18? 19?

[00:02:24] SM: I was 22. I had graduated from college.

[00:02:28] KM: But not when you met him and started dating.

[00:02:30] SM: No. No. Not when I met him. But it was the year before. And he always had a trip to Washington. And the seniors went. And that's where I met him. And then I married him after college.

[00:02:40] KM: You're 20. And he's 15 years older. That's almost twice your age, if you look at it like that.

[00:02:45] SM: He was old. I get it. I’m totally on your side now. It was. He was old.

[00:02:51] KM: Yeah. You’re nice. You're always nice.

[00:02:53] SM: He was funny though. He was really funny. And that went a long way toward bridging the gap in the ages. He talked like you were reading the greatest book in the world. Just talking with him every day was hilarious and funny. I never saw anyone who didn't love talking to him, because he was a guy who leaned into the story with you, and had all the facts, and all of the color. And he knew everything to a 22-year-old girl from Camden, Arkansas. It really was astonishing.

[00:03:26] KM: You were born in Camden, Arkansas. Tell us about your mother and father and how they met.

[00:03:30] SM: I was not my father was in the US military. And he met my mother during the Second World War in a bomb shelter when the Nazis were trying to kill everyone in Europe. And my mother was very impressed with the tall, six-foot-two, blond, blue-eyed, handsome guy from Arkansas and went and she took him home and fed him. And that was the end of that story.

[00:03:54] KM: Or the beginning of that story.

[00:03:55] SM: Yeah, that was the end of the meeting, but the beginning of life. And I was born in Heidelberg, seven brothers and sisters, and they were married all over Europe where my dad was stationed. We had quite a life growing up. And we all felt like we were in the army. Every time my dad got papers to move, we all packed our little bags and went wherever he went. We were an Army family. We were a military family. All for one and one for all. Stand up for your country.

[00:04:24] KM: How old were you when you got to Camden?

[00:04:25] SM: Salute the flag.

[00:04:26] KM: Thank you.

[00:04:26] SM: Say the Pledge of Allegiance. No, America, the beautiful. We were a very military family growing up. And that –

[00:04:35] KM: You gave speeches at the American Legion, didn’t you?

[00:04:37] SM: I've won an award from the American Legion and a scholarship because we were true believers. My mother was Belgian. And my mother saw what the Nazis were doing to Europe. And the only thing that stopped them were the American troops that came to her hometown. And she thought, “This is a country that comes where they know no one and saves people's lives.” She thought it was the greatest country ever. She couldn't wait to move here and to be American. And she raised all of us in that way.

[00:05:04] KM: And then she ends up in Camden. I bet she was a little shocked.

[00:05:07] SM: She was. Yeah, she was from a huge university city in Belgium and had gone to school to be a doctor when the Nazis closed the schools to anyone who –

[00:05:20] KM: Camden don’t have an Air Force Base. Why Camden?

[00:05:24] SM: My dad was –

[00:05:25] KM: Oh, his family is from there.

[00:05:26] SM: Around there. Yes, from around there. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:29] KM: Why did you decide to go to OBU, Ouachita Baptist University?

[00:05:33] SM: I think it was because I didn't decide. My parents wanted me to be close. I was a – our family is very tight knit. And they did not want me to leave. In fact, the first weekend I went to Ouachita, I went back home, and everyone was lined up in the driveway waiting for me. And I got out of the car. And my dad said, “You don't have to go back.” And I was thinking, “Well, good, because I miss all you.” My mother said, “She has to go back.” Yeah, we were just very close.

[00:06:05] KM: You're at OBU. You're studying what? Do you remember?

[00:06:11] SM: The way I met Jimmy Dougal was taking political science courses. He was head of the political science department at Ouachita. And I took some political science courses. I was interested in it.

[00:06:23] KM: Was that your major?

[00:06:24] SM: No, it wasn't. Speech was my major.

[00:06:29] KM: Oh! And then how did he ask you out? How did you first end up going out with him?

[00:06:36] SM: I locked his office door. I was doing some work for another professor in there. And by accident, I locked his door and he kicked the door down. And I thought, “This is a guy I need to know.” I thought that was pretty cool, looking back on it. That was the beginning of – I should have run. But actually, I thought, “This guy kicked this huge wooden door down because it was locked and we could have gotten a key. But I thought it was rather chivalrous. I was outside the office needed to get in. I know. I love the faces you were making. Why weren’t you there at the time? Where were you?

[00:07:16] GM: Speaks to your – I feel like your –

[00:07:17] KM: Naivety.

[00:07:18] GM: Yeah. Like, “Oh, this guy is cool. He’s kicking down doors.” It’s like – Yeah.

[00:07:21] SM: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:23] KM: And he’s scrawny. He didn't look like he’d kicked down doors, does he?

[00:07:26] SM: Oh, he wasn't scrawny.

[00:07:26] KM: He wasn’t?

[00:07:28] SM: He wasn't. He’s tall and thin. But he wasn't scrawny. He’s pretty macho guy.

[00:07:33] KM: What was the courtship like?

[00:07:36] SM: Listening to him talk. Just listening to him and meeting a bunch of his friends. He worked for Senator Fulbright. And he'd worked on the Hill for Senator McClellan.

[00:07:51] KM: And you met Claudia and Bob Riley through him. Is that correct?

[00:07:54] SM: That’s right. They were his closest friends, I would say. Because when Bob became governor for that short period of time, when Senator Pryor – Was it Pryor that went to Washington? And there was a wait for the election. He had been appointed. And Bob was in the governor's office, and Jim helped him run it.

[00:08:14] KM: And Bob Raleigh was a lieutenant governor at the time?

[00:08:17] SM: That's right. And became governor.

[00:08:19] KM: And became governor. And Jim helped him run that. Were you married at that time?

[00:08:23] SM: No. That was long before.

[00:08:25] KM: And you met Bill and Hillary Clinton during that time?

[00:08:28] SM: Yes.

[00:08:30] SM: Because they were at parties you went to.

[00:08:31] SM: Bill Clinton had worked for Fulbright. Jim had gotten the job. They were – Bill looked up to Jim. He had worked for Fulbright forever. And that was a pretty prestigious appointment at the time. And he loved Bill Clinton. Just loved him. Thought he was funny and smart and a great person to know in Arkansas in upcoming politics. He was going to be great. And Jim could see them.

[00:09:00] KM: What was Bill's position at the time? He wasn’t governor?

[00:09:03] SM: No. He was he was a kid driving Fulbright around in the election when Jim met him. That was his first job was driving Fulbright around and losing the car. He was always losing the car. And Fulbright was furious. He said, “Who is this you've hired to drive the round? He never knows where he's parked the car.” And so, that was the beginning of the funny stories about Bill Clinton working for Fulbright, and Jim being his boss.

[00:09:30] KM: And didn't Bill Clinton talk Fulbright's ear off and he one time said something like, “Don't ever let that kid drive me around anymore. “

[00:09:36] SM: That's in the book, I think. Yes.

[00:09:38] KM: Yeah. I'm like I can just hear Bill Clinton talking somebody's ear off.

[00:09:42] SM: Yeah. And thinking they want to hear it. You know? Never been shy about talking anybody's ear off. Yes. I'm sure they want to hear from me would have been the attitude.

[00:09:51] KM: Yeah. And I remember in the book you mentioned meeting Jim Guy Tucker, who was at the time breathtakingly handsome.

[00:09:59] SM: True. There were posters in my dorm. I was still in school. There were posters in my dorm of Jim Guy.

[00:10:06] KM: Because he was – what was he at that time?

[00:10:08] SM: Attorney General.

[00:10:10] KM: Girls had posters of him in your dorm room? Like a model?

[00:10:15] SM: Yeah, like a big – Maybe vote for Jim Guy Tucker. This huge posters in their room. He was startlingly good.

[00:10:25] KM: Startlingly.

[00:10:26] SM: And nice, and well-spoken, and well-educated. I mean, this is not someone you just bump into on the streets.

[00:10:33] KM: Ernie Dumas called him a swashbuckler, because he was a Marine and he –

[00:10:37] GM: Well, wasn't he the one that sailed on a freight ship across the Pacific?

[00:10:43] KM: During the Vietnam War because he –

[00:10:44] GM: Yeah. Just because he wanted to go take pictures.

[00:10:45] KM: Yeah. And he infiltrated the prison to find out what was problem with the prisons. And yeah, he was very gregarious.

[00:10:54] GM: Swashbuckler.

[00:10:54] KM: Swashbuckler, yeah. Your wedding day. Tell us about your wedding day. Jim's kind of – you haven't really said yes, so to speak, to Jim about wedding. He's just kind of railroaded you into this wedding.

[00:11:06] SM: Yeah, I'd say that's probably true. I think that's probably true. It was like I didn't have a plan. And he had a plan. And I thought, “Well, I can do this for a while.” And so, that was kind of the thinking at the time. It was the 70s. Let's not forget. Not today.

And we got married a little house that he had bought out in the country that was once a goat house. And he had redone it with all kinds of crazy wallpaper and things. It was funny. When you walked in, you had to laugh because Jim had done the decorating himself.

[00:11:40] KM: Oh, I'd be furious.

[00:11:43] SM: Oh, no, no, he was living there. I wasn't living there. And I didn't care. I mean, no. This is a goat house. This is not a house you really get your emotions involved.

[00:11:52] KM: Okay.

[00:11:54] SM: And the story I think is in the book where I'm lying on the rug, the new carpet in the house, and whatever gets on goats is crawling.

[00:12:03] KM: Fleas?

[00:12:05] SM: No. Legs and things like that. Ticks? Something like that. Yeah. And you could just see them. I mean, it's not like he had the place fumigated or anything. He just laid very expensive, lovely carpet and had the thing painted.

[00:12:20] KM: On top of the dirt floor?

[00:12:21] SM: I don't know. I didn't ask those questions. I'm just saying it wasn't well done. And it was frightening. And the only heat in the house was a pot-bellied stove that had a pipe like Lincoln must have lived with. And there was no stove or anything in the kitchen. And no micro – I don't even think microwaves were made yet. There were just cabinets in a refrigerator.

[00:12:46] KM: What a paradox.

[00:12:48] SM: Yeah, we had Fulbright there once. We had him to lunch.

[00:12:52] KM: In the goat house?

[00:12:52] SM: Yes. And Fulbright said, “I don't believe I've ever seen a kitchen of a stove in it.” Jim didn't care. I mean, really, that sort of accoutrement, that sort of dressing things up. It is what it is. Come see us. And we had Bill Clinton stay there one night. It was just what it was, you know?

[00:13:18] KM: it’s like camping out almost. So, you got married –

[00:13:19] SM: No. It had nice furniture. It had very expensive nice furniture in the goat house. Yes.

[00:13:26] KM: You got married in the front yard of the goat house?

[00:13:27] SM: That's true.

[00:13:28] KM: Tell us about that. And I bet a lot of people came to that.

[00:13:31] SM: No, not really. Bill Clinton came. Bob and Claudia came. Bob Married us. He was blind. So, he didn't have anything to eat from. And he just kept saying the same thing over and over again, “Do you date this person? Do you take this person? Do you –” And I thought, “My God, we're going to be here all day.” He didn't know the lines evidently. It was very funny.

[00:13:51] KM: You were barefoot.

[00:13:52] SM: I was barefoot. It was the 70s. I had flowers in my hair. I had a long 70’s dress.

[00:13:59] KM: I think in the book you said it had been and there was mad.

[00:14:02] SM: Oh, there had been raining. Yes. And the little flowers that had been planted and put out in everything, they were gone. They were in the mud. Yes. It looked like a mud track. It was what it was. It wasn't like either of us said, “Oh, my God! We have to reboot.” It’s like, “Everyone's coming.”

[00:14:21] KM: You're not putting on airs. That's for sure.

[00:14:22] SM: No. No airs. You know?

[00:14:25] KM: Everybody's so pretentious these days, it seems like.

[00:14:26] SM: We had bought this bank downtown and we really spent a lot of money making it cool inside. And he had an office that was upstairs. It was just really beautiful and soft. And he wouldn't go up there. When I finally got him in there, Bill Clinton came from running one day and got sweat on his leather chairs in there. He said, “This is why we don't need these things. We just need to stay in the basics. Look at the sweat on the chairs.”

[00:14:58] KM: The things you remember.

[00:15:00] SM: I think you have to laugh. I think you'd have to laugh.

[00:15:02] GM: Oh, it's hilarious.

[00:15:04] SM: You have to – Yeah. And he was funny. And he thought he was funny. And everyone thought he was funny.

[00:15:11] KM: What was Jim's business? Real estate? He was good at it too, wasn’t he? When you married him, was it real estate?

[00:15:16] SM: Yes. He was mostly working in politics, local politics. If you go to the polls

[inaudible 00:15:23] and make him your choice. Arkansas own Sam boys. Do you remember him? He ran for governor.

[00:15:29] KM: No. No.

[00:15:30] SM: Oh, great guy. Great democrat. His son is now like AG somewhere. I mean, big legal family. Great friends of Bob and Claudia. And Jim started working in local elections.

[00:15:45] KM: Jim didn't write jingles though?

[00:15:48] SM: No. I just remember that because I was a kid. I liked that song.

[00:15:50] KM: I have some political jingle stuck in my head that will never leave too. Penrose on me. Penrose on me. I'm for Roseman. You remember that one? No?

[00:16:00] SM: No. Thankfully. No.

[00:16:03] KM: All right. You are going to Fayetteville to look at some property that he's thinking about buying. And you go through a little town to have lunch. And there's a bank there, the Bank of Kingston, and it's for sale.

[00:16:18] SM: Yes.

[00:16:19] KM: But he buys that bank.

[00:16:20] SM: Yeah, he bought that bank.

[00:16:22] KM: Not just anybody can buy bank. Or did he get a partner?

[00:16:26] SM: Yes. Steve Smith in Bill Clinton's office was his partner in that.

[00:16:31] KM: Who's the Governor at this time?

[00:16:32] SM: Bill Clinton.

[00:16:33] KM: Oh, so this is years later.

[00:16:35] SM: Jim was the kind of person that was always looking for something to do, to buy, to resell, to make into something else. It was a passion.

[00:16:45] GM: Sounds familiar? Yeah.

[00:16:47] SM: Yeah. He was always looking for something to reconfigure. And this little bank was adorable. It really was. It had a big ball safe in the window at the bank. Back in the old days, if fire or something broke out, and all the money in the stuff was in the big ball. The bottom would melt. It had a little melty bottom, and it would roll out the window and down the street.

[00:17:14] KM: Now, say that again.

[00:17:16] SM: Okay.

[00:17:16] KM: It's a ball.

[00:17:17] SM: It's huge. It's as big as that door.

[00:17:23] KM: Big as a regular door.

[00:17:24] SM: And round though. As big as that wall. As big as that wall right there. And you look in the window, and there it is. And it's black, and it's gold lettered Bank of Kingston with a little gold handle thing. And it's on a plateau looking thing, stand, that is supposed to melt in case of fire. And it's in the window so that it rolls out of the bank and it's saved. We just thought that was the coolest thing ever.

[00:17:51] KM: I still think that's the coolest thing ever. I've ever heard of anything like that. It’s on a wax base, I guess?

[00:17:57] SM: Some kind of base that melts before the safe does.

[00:18:00] KM: Okay, what do y'all do with it? Live at the window?

[00:18:02] SM: Of course. Yeah. I mean, of course. And we found at the – The had taken a chainsaw and sawed off the tellers’ windows, you know? And they were like the ones down in the post office here in downtown Little Rock. Those brass. Beautiful. Do you know what I'm talking? And he had them put back up.

[00:18:26] KM: he found them in a basement or somewhere?

[00:18:27] SM: Well, in the back of the bank. Yes. And it had one phone when we bought it. It was on the wall. And anyone who used the phone went over to the wall and said Bank of Kingston. We had all new phones and all computers put in. It was fun.

[00:18:42] KM: That sounds like a blast.

[00:18:43] SM: It was bringing it into the 21st century. And it was really fun. And the guy who ran it, Gary Bunch, was like just the coolest guy ever. I mean, you just couldn't meet anyone. He rodeoed. He rode bulls. He was good looking. He was funny. He was macho. He knew everyone in Madison County. He knew everyone who had money at the bank. And everyone trusted him. He was from an old, old family.

[00:19:12] KM: Was he's smart too, I guess?

[00:19:13] SM: Oh, yea. Yes.

[00:19:15] KM: Everything.

[00:19:16] SM: He was just perfect.

[00:19:17] KM: Did Whitewater go after him to? Please tell me no then?

[00:19:22] SM: I don't think so.

[00:19:23] KM: They went through everybody your past.

[00:19:23] SM: You know, if you asked me if he was intelligent. I think he was intelligent and just stayed out of all of that. He wasn't in politics. And he wasn't in any of those things.

[00:19:33] KM: Yeah, but Whitewater, when they came to town, they didn't care if you were in politics or not. They went after everybody it seemed like that even barely knew you. They were like, “Well, we're going to –” Or Bill Clinton or any of y'all.

[00:19:44] SM: Yeah, it ruined a lot of lives. In the trial that I had, people got on the stand and wept and sobbed over the fact they lost everything they had trying to defend themselves and then not convicted of anything. Just charged and then your life ruined. And nothing came of it. And it was, I think, a tactic to make people lie.

[00:20:09] KM: It absolutely was.

[00:20:10] SM: Yes.

[00:20:12] KM: All right, this is a great place to take a break. When we come back, we'll continue our conversation with Miss Susan McDougal. Known as the woman that wouldn't talk during the Whitewater trial of the mid-90s. Still to come, just what she said, how many people's lives were ruined by the Whitewater trial? The story of Madison Guaranty, which became the target of the Whitewater investigation and ruined a lot of people's lives there. The Whitewater Real Estate Development. What was it? It was pretty simple. We're going to tell you what it is. What Susan was accused of? What Susan was convicted of? And what she learned in her two-year incarceration in seven different jails, a torturous tactic by the prosecution known as diesel therapy. And last, what she's doing today and why she chose to come back to Arkansas? We'll be back after the break.

[BREAK]

[00:20:57] GM: You're listening to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy, a production of flagandbanner.com. Over 40 years ago, with only $400, Kerry founded Arkansas Flag and Banner. During the last four decades, the business has grown and changed along with Kerry's experience and leadership knowledge. In 1995. She embraced the internet and rebranded her company as simply flagandbanner.com. In 2004, she became an early blogger. Since then, she has founded the nonprofit Friends of Dreamland ballroom, began publishing her magazine, Brave. And in 2016, branched out into this very radio show, YouTube channel and podcast. In 2020, Kerrie McCoy enterprises acquired ourcornermarket.com, an online company specializing in American-made plaques, signage and memorials for over 20 years.

If you'd like to sponsor this show, or get involved with any of Kerry McCoy's enterprises, send an email to me, GGray, that's gray@flagandbanner.com. Telling American-made stories, selling American-made flags, the flagandbanner.com. Back to you, Kerry.

[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]

[00:22:07] KM: You're listening to Up in Your Business with me, Kerry McCoy. And I'm speaking today with Miss Susan McDougal, the defendant and the woman that wouldn't talk in the 1994 Whitewater investigation and trial.

Before the break, we talked about Susan being from Camden, being an army brat. About meeting Jim McDougal who kicked in the door and impressed her with his machoness. Then how she ended up getting married at the goat house. And then ended up owning a bank in Kingston. And that's just the beginning of the story. Wait till you hear the good stuff. Now, you own a bank, a small bank, in Kingston, which I'm kind of jealous of that. It sounded like a lot of fun to redo. Are you living in that little city?

[00:22:50] SM: Oh, yes, yes, we moved up there.

[00:22:52] KM: Okay. But Jim sees an opportunity for business in Little Rock because he's missing, I think, the big city. And he opened up – He founded, I guess, he founded, Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan. Tell us how that came about.

[00:23:05] SM: Madison actually was for sale. It was one little small savings and loan in a very small town in Arkansas, which I can't remember. And he bought it and branched it to a lot of different cities. And he did the major bank savings and loan. He bought that building and redid it. And it was the major –

[00:23:27] KM: In downtown Little Rock, Arkansas. It was very impressive. At the opening, we talked about how Jim was bipolar. When he had up swings, he had major up swings. He had a customer, I think, who was a Mercedes dealership. And he wanted all the people in his – That worked for him, the tellers and everybody, to have Mercedes in the parking lot.

[00:23:49] SM: He bought people a lot of things. First, he bought them clothes from all the lovely store for men here in Little Rock that –

[00:23:59] KM: Mr. Wicks.

[00:24:01] SM: Mr. Wicks? Yes, Mr. wicks. And he bought everyone gorgeous clothes to work in the bank. And they love that. I mean, they looked really good. And they were not used to dressing that way. And they just love Jim for that.

[00:24:14] KM: This is so opposite of him not wanting to put on airs. And yet he's giving these really expensive clothes to the people –

[00:24:21] SM: To young people. To young people. To sort of set a standard or to help them to see how they might –

[00:24:31] GM: Empower?

[00:24:31] SM: Yeah, yeah, really. That was what it was. Because Ernie Dumas wrote that Jim looked like he had his clothes thrown on him from a distance.

[00:24:42] KM: He did, they hung on him like sacks.

[00:24:44] SM: I know. I don't think you can say he was dressing himself that way. Because he always dressed for comfort. He was like Winston Churchill. He didn't want anything touching his cuticle, as he called it.

[00:24:56] KM: His cuticles? Is that your skin?

[00:24:57] SM: The skin, yeah. Isn't that funny? That's one of the quoting things, and the knowing poetry, and knowing literature. Just lovely. I don't like anything touching my cuticle as Winston Churchill would just. You know? Just lovely. I thought that was a wonderful way to live.

[00:25:17] KM: Yeah. He buys everybody clothes. The he buys on Mercedes. But the employees actually make the note payments.

[00:25:25] SM: Yeah. They pick their car, and they decide what they're going to pay and all of that. Jim, introduced them to the guy that owned Mercedes place.

[00:25:35] KM: And he still owns the Bank of Kingston?

[00:25:38] SM: Yes.

[00:25:39] KM: And he's still doing real estate.

[00:25:41] SM: Yes.

[00:25:42] KM: And he's still –

[00:25:44] SM: Actually, the savings and loan was purchased to finance real estate purchases for people throughout the state of Arkansas. Because it was hard at that time for some folks to get loans. Yeah, money was tight. It was hard. And he was going to have a real estate place for the people. It was going to be for the people to own property.

[00:26:12] KM: Yeah, it's kind of vertical integration in business. He's going to sell the money, then take it over to his bank. And then his bank's going to loan you the money. And he's going to improve people's lives, and his life too, and everybody. I mean, it's building a big community.

[00:26:26] SM: The making money from it was not the big priority, unfortunately. One of the things that the independent counsel never found was any money. I kept saying, “Where's the money if we are these people who've done all these things?” But the profit was never it. It was always involving people and showing them how to make money. How to take a piece of land? How to carve it up? How to put water in or roads. And then to buy these – I mean, we sold lots to people who had never dreamed of having a five-acre lot with a house on it.

And then we introduced them to builders, who knew that we were going to finance the end product with them. And the builder would come and make that design that they wanted. I mean, it was people who've never had that dream before.

[00:27:15] KM: And I get that from where Jim's coming from. I love the creative process of business. It's the building of something and the hooking it up. And there's a lot of things you do in business that are labors of love, that are fun, and that are creative, that are not necessarily the best business decision. I've had lots of bankers tell me, they go, “That's not really a good idea to buy the Taborian Hall in downtown Little Rock, Kerry. That's a really bad idea.” I’m like, “Well, it's a labor of love. I can't help it. I want to redo it.”

[00:27:45] SM: Yes, absolutely. And it was the 70s and early 80s when people were very idealistic.

[00:27:52] KM: We were very idealistic. It's interesting that you said that about Madison Guaranty. Because after all the combing through everything by Whitewater, they never found anything but a misdemeanor for an appraisal that was a little too high that was done by a subcontractor.

[00:28:11] SM: Yeah, it was never anything. There was no there-there.

[00:28:16] KM: Kenneth Starr went on TV and said, “Madison Guaranty is the most corrupt institution in the country.” And they never found one thing.

[00:28:23] SM: No. They asked me to come and testify to congress about what had been found. So, I got to go sit and look at all the findings. There was literally nothing.

[00:28:35] KM: Which I don't think most people realize that. I just assumed it had so much negative publicity. I just assumed there was something there. There had to be smoking gun. I mean, I never knew what it was, but I just assumed it was bad because of the bad press.

[00:28:48] SM: I think it was just the first of a long line of bad information out there. Just like we have now where people don't believe that the Coronavirus is real. And they don't think – Yes. It's just all of that information and you can drown people in it. And I do think that people believe there was something there. But that one sentence tells you why I went to jail rather than testify. Because I'm a person who knew there was nothing there.

[00:29:21] KM: What was your position at the bank?

[00:29:23] SM: Wife.

[00:29:26] KM: You didn't work – You didn't work at the bank at all?

[00:29:30] SM: No. No. I never had a position at the bank. I sold real estate. But I was not a banker.

[00:29:36] KM: Yeah. You just did things when Jim told you to do something. Your life with Jim was starting to unravel. You were starting to realize that he's got a problem. You didn't know he was bipolar, I don't think, yet.

[00:29:47] SM: He bought an island. Sight unseen. That was the beginning of the crack for me. He bought Campobello Island.

[00:29:55] KM: Where is that?

[00:29:58] SM: It's in Canada. And it's formerly owned by – Well, it had a house there where President Roosevelt had been bathing. And their house is still there in perfect shape with everything in it that was ever there. And we went to see that. And well, after we bought it, we went to see that. That was lovely. And the island was lovely. The Bay of Fundy is around that island.

[00:30:27] GM: I know what that is.

[00:30:29] KM: Is it developed? Is it developed now? Is it developed now?

[00:30:28] SM: I have no idea. The name itself is enough to make me have complete breakdown.

[00:30:38] KM: Why did you not like it if it was lovely and everything was beautiful?

[00:30:40] SM: In fact, this whole conversation is giving me a complete breakdown.

[00:30:45] KM: Rash? It’s giving you a rash?

[00:30:47] SM: Yes. Yes. I'm inarticulate to say the least. He saw that island for sale. And he looked at the price and what it was. And he said, “We're buying it. And he sent one of the people from the bank up there, and they bought it and came home and said, “We have it. It's ours.”

[00:31:10] KM: Whatever happened to it? He sold it? Or lose it? Or –

[00:31:12] SM: Oh, I don't know. I really don't. We sold a lot of it. We've developed some of it.

[00:31:21] KM: You said that's the crack.

[00:31:23] SM: That was the beginning of, “What are we doing?”

[00:31:26] KM: Wasn't Jim – Were you and Jim living together?

[00:31:27] SM: And I was older – I was older, you have to remember.

[00:31:30] KM: How old are you now?

[00:31:32] SM: Probably that was – let's see. I got married in ‘76. And I left in ‘86. I was 30 something.

[00:31:40] KM: You’re starting to be a woman.

[00:31:42] SM: I'm starting to realize I might need to say something.

[00:31:46] KM: Yeah. I need a voice.

[00:31:48] SM: I probably should be saying something right now. And it was scary.

[00:31:52] KM: What's the first thing you did when you left? You moved out? Told him? What did you say?

[00:31:58] SM: I think he helped me out. He was manic. And he was having a good time. Yeah, life was really good for him.

[00:32:07] KM: You don't want to be with me? You're out of here.

[00:32:09] SM: No, it was like, “Go. Have a good time. And this is what you want. And I want what you want.” And if someone falls out of love with you, there's just not much you can do about it.

[00:32:22] KM: Had he said he'd fallen out with you?

[00:32:23] SM: No. No. He was saying I had. And he was saying there's just not much to be done. We don't want to argue or anything. I think he helped me out with my luggage. And it was friendly. It was nice. And we talked every day. And it wasn’t great. It wasn't – And I worried about him because I knew that he was manic and I knew that bad things –

[00:32:45] KM: You loved him.

[00:32:46] SM: Yes, absolutely.

[00:32:47] KM: But you start dating Pat. This is when you start dating Pat. You've known Pat for a long time.

[00:32:53] SM: Well, we knew each other. He worked there. And we knew each other. And he was reasonable. And it was such a relief to talk to someone reasonable. And he loved Jim. He loved him. And so did I. And we talked about what was happening. And he was aware of it. Most people, when you try to talk to them about someone who is manic and the things that are going on, they look at you like you're crazy. But Pat knew what was going on. He was worried also. And so, we built a friendship really around worrying about Jim.

[00:33:28] KM: Interesting. You're such a nice person. I cannot believe all this stuff happened to you. Okay, let's just keep going.

[00:33:34] SM: You see? I told you. People don't believe it.

[00:33:36] KM: You and Pat decide to move to California.

[00:33:39] SM: Yes.

[00:33:40] KM: You're going off. Jim's fine. You're leaving. Are you divorced yet?

[00:33:45] SM: No. No. We didn't divorce forever.

[00:33:48] KM: Okay. The first job you get in California is with Occidental Petroleum. And you went – I think you went to an employment agency to get the job, I think.

[00:34:01] SM: Yeah, I wasn't wanting anything really to do except file things. I can remember saying, “I would like to put pieces of paper in file folders because I'm so traumatized by all of what's going on.”

[00:34:13] KM: 10 years with Jim.

[00:34:14] SM: Yeah, I was traumatized by the divorce. I was traumatized by what was happening to – – He was hiring a lot of people who were looking to make a big bunch of money.

And we had never been like that. It was never our goal to make a lot of money. But people were coming into the business that were having dreams that were about making a lot of money. It was scary to me. It was not what we had always been about.

And so, I was really traumatized when we left. And I told everybody, I said, “If I can get a job just filing pieces of paper, I'll be so happy.” I've been selling real estate. My last year, I made a lot of money selling real estate. Commissions. Not being paid for anything. But on commission. And I didn't want that anymore. I just wanted a peaceful life.

[00:35:07] KM: You fill out a resume with that employment agency that comes back to haunt you.

[00:35:15] SM: Not really.

[00:35:16] KM: I thought it did.

[00:35:17] SM: Well, it was supposed to. But –

[00:35:19] KM: Oh, they tried to make it haunt you.

[00:35:21] SM: They tried to make it haunt me. But unfortunately for them, I told the truth. I said, “I needed a job.” I told them that I could do secretarial work. And they said, “You put down here that you were a secretary.” I said, “Well, yeah, that's the job I wanted. I thought I'd better say I had some experience.” And they said, “Well, what was your experience?” I said, “Well, I'd sold real estate. I had helped build the bank. I had done marketing stuff. I'd done a lot of things. I didn't want to do that anymore. I just wanted to work in a peaceful place.” And the jury all looked at me like, “What is so wrong about her saying that she was a secretary?”

[00:36:00] KM: So, let’s tell the listeners that in the Whitewater trial, they tried to say Susan is this notorious liar. She lied on her resume. Which who doesn't, first of all?

[00:36:12] SM: Who lies down?

[00:36:15] KM: Yeah, right?

[00:36:17] SM: I mean, it wasn't like I was saying, “Yeah, I can run A&TT.” And it was like, “Yeah, just please, can I type and answer the phone?” Because I'm traumatized. I need a quiet place. When I held that up, I held it up like this in the jury room. And I said, “Yes, I absolutely lied on this. I have never been a secretary, but I thought I might be able to figure it out. And they loved it. They talked to me about it later.

That jury actually came and had dinner with me and came to Little Rock for the Little Rock trial. That jury followed me, and for the rest of my life. And I held that piece of paper up, the fraudulent, horrible Susan McDougal who lied down. And they just thought it was unbelievable how they had made such a big deal out of it. But you have to have you have nothing.

[00:37:10] KM: Right. Pat, though, he gets a job with Conductor Zubin. How do you say Zubin’s last name?

[00:37:19] SM: Mehta.

[00:37:20] KM: Mehta. He's a famous conductor.

[00:37:24] SM: Charming, good looking. Zubi big baby was his nickname.

[00:37:28] KM: Zubi baby. But he's also an absentee husband.

[00:37:32] SM: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

[00:37:34] KM: His wife lives in California. And she's got all the money. And she's got all the prestige. And her husband is this big hot dog conductor.

[00:37:43] SM: Oh, she's fabulously beautiful too. She is in Jason and the Argonauts. She is the goddess in that movie. And she was in Bewitched. She was Darren’s girlfriend who was so gorgeous. And Samantha was angry at her. And she was in Dean Martin films and all of those spy films. She was absolutely, fabulously beautiful. Tall, good looking.

[00:38:10] KM: Blonde, I guess?

[00:38:11] SM: Smart. Blonde, yes.

[00:38:15] KM: And so, Pat's working for her. And he decides to go off to get his law degree and to leave California. And where does he go to start studying for law?

[00:38:26] SM: The University of Michigan.

[00:38:28] KM: He goes to Michigan. And he's been her assistant for a year or so. And he says –

[00:38:34] SM: She does real estate. She owns and sells real estate.

[00:38:37] KM: Okay? And so, he's going to leave that position and ask you if you want it?

[00:38:42] SM: No. He leaves the position. She's met me, because he works there. And she likes me. We strike up a friendship. And we do a lot of things together before Pat leaves. And when he leaves, she said, “I have been dreaming of you coming to work.” And she's on the mountain with the Gorillas in the Mist. I'm trying to talk and remember what he said. She's on a mountain with Gorillas in the Mist.

[00:39:13] KM: In her dream.

[00:39:15] SM: No, no, no, in the actuality of it. She is an Africa where they see the gorillas. They write about the Gorillas in the Mist. And this came to me that you need to come and work with me. I mean, who can say no to that? But I should have, because all I wanted was a peaceful life, right? That did not work out well.

[00:39:37] KM: Describe a day with Nancy.

[00:39:40] SM: She had a lot of rental property. Tom Hanks lived in one of the houses. And we would go over and see if things needed to be done. Or talk to them about you know what they needed. Or would you like a larger fish pond? Or whatever it was. Whatever it was, we were ladies who went.

[00:40:00] KM: Even though she was crazy, you liked her. But you –

[00:40:03] SM: Oh, we were very close. Oh my gosh!

[00:40:06] KM: Y'all did everything together.

[00:40:07] SM: Well, that not by my choice. But yes.

[00:40:10] KM: She wouldn't let you out of her sight.

[00:40:11] SM: No.

[00:40:12] KM: She made you sleep with her sometimes. I mean, not just like bunking parties.

[00:40:18] SM: No. No, we never slept.

[00:40:19] KM: I thought you had to spend the night there sometimes.

[00:40:20] SM: No. She came. And I was in an apartment. And she had the movers come and pick my things up and put them in her house. She had a huge home.

[00:40:28] KM: You started noticing she was a little quirky and clingy. And you decided I need to get my life back. And you start talking about wanting to leave. She was not going to go for that.

[00:40:39] SM: No. Really, in fact, her attorney said to me, “This is not going to end well. She gets what she wants. And this is not going to go well.”

[00:40:51] KM: How many years did you end up working for –

[00:40:52] SM: But I was an adult. And I figured I could go, you know?

[00:40:55] KM: Right. How many years did you work for her?

[00:40:57] SM: Oh, not that many. I don't know, five, maybe?

[00:41:00] KM: Oh, that's a pretty long time. And then you go home to visit your mother. And she tells you that somebody called from California.

[00:41:07] SM: Okay, I'm in Michigan. And my mother calls me and says someone wants to know – someone from the Independent Counsel’s Office is calling Independent Counsel’s Office and wanting to know where you are. And I was working at the university. And that was lovely. Loved being there. And my mom called and said, “Somebody from the Independent Counsel's Office wants to talk with you.” And I had been reading in the newspaper that they were investigating President Clinton. And I knew that I didn't want any part of that. So, I never called them back.

[00:41:38] KM: Did you get the Whitewater invest – So you got the call from your mother about Whitewater? Had you heard about the Mehta trail yet?

[00:41:46] SM: No. Not at all.

[00:41:46] KM: Whitewater was first. And then the Mehta trial came second.

[00:41:50] SM: Because they were hooked together.

[00:41:52] KM: Yeah. Which we later found out that they we're all –

[00:41:54] SM: Yes. Whitewater had to have happened first before the Mehta thing too have happened.

[00:42:00] KM: Right. All right, this a great place to take a break. But we're going to solve that riddle when we come back.

[00:42:05] SM: I'm worn out.

[00:42:06] GM: No.

[00:42:08] GM: But we're just getting started.

[BREAK]

[00:42:10] TW: We'll be back at Karen McCoy’s Susan McDougal interview. This is only part one of a two-part interview with Susan McDougal. We'll continue again next week. And in just a second, after we remind you that this is a very special time, if you've thought about making a donation to the Friends of Dreamland, to make that donation. Because there's a corporate matching campaign going on right now. Your gift will be matched up to $50,000 as we help build a future that Arkansas can be proud of, as the Friends of Dreamland fulfill that mission that they've had for years to celebrate the community of historic West 9th Street, share the legacy of the Dreamland ballroom and preserve the original intent of Taborian Hall.

Taborian Hall downtown is the location of flagandbanner.com. And it's that family through proven partnership that invites you to share in this restoration effort. Participate in the special matching gift opportunity. Arkansas Flag and Banner Inc., will match every dollar you give up to $50,000.

You know, as the Friends of Dreamland ballroom near the end of the funds that they got from the African American Civil Rights Preservation Grant for the elevator edition, they're looking at work that needs to be done outside that grant’s scope. It involves all kinds of outdoor access to the ballroom that we need. So, this matching gift campaign couldn't be better timed. Please think about it. Friends of Dreamland.

Now back to Kerry McCoy.

[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]

[00:43:40] KM: All right, you're listening to Up in Your Business with me, Kerry McCoy, and I'm speaking today with Miss Susan McDougal, defendant of the1994 Whitewater investigation.

And notably known as the woman that wouldn't talk. Your mother has called you and said the Whitewater investigation is going on. And you said, “Yeah, I saw that on TV.” And they called you. And you were like, “Well, I'm not going to call them back.”

[00:44:01] SM: No, it was really a blip in the New York Times. It was a very small story like on page 10 that said an investigation has been started on President Clinton and a small real estate company in Little Rock, Arkansas.

And I saw that and thought, “Well, that's not good.” And then mother said they were calling me. And I thought, “I don't really have much to say. Nothing happened that I know.”

[00:44:28] KM: In the beginning, the OIC was investigating Jim and his savings and loan company? Or where they investigating Whitewater? How did Madison Guaranty end up in the Whitewater investigation?

[00:44:41] SM: Bill Clinton and Hillary bought a piece of land with a house on it from the Whitewater Development Corporation as an investment vacation home thing. He owned a lot and a house, a vacation home.

[00:44:58] KM: How did you first end up meeting with OIC about Madison Guaranty? Tell us about that first meeting.

[00:45:05] SM: I was asked to come down. And I think I looked through attorneys in Arkansas through a book. And Bobby McDaniel was listed as one of the best trial lawyers in Arkansas. And I called him and I said, “They've asked me to come and talk with them. And I wondered if you'd go with me?” And he said he would.

[00:45:33] KM: You were already like, “This is scary.”

[00:45:37] SM: No, not really. I was going to go by myself. And I think someone intervened and said, “You probably should have somebody –”

[00:45:45] KM: Probably, your boyfriend, Pat, has a lawyer?

[00:45:48] SM: Maybe. But he wasn't really on top of all that fearfulness either. Neither one of us really thought it would be anything because we'd both been there. And when you know that there's no there-there, you're not really afraid of it, you know?

[00:46:03] KM: Mm-hmm. So, you meet in Arkansas. You go down – Where you living in Michigan at the time?

[00:46:08] SM: Yes, I came down to Little Rock. And Bobby, whom I've never met, met me at the – somewhere here in Little Rock, one of the office buildings. And I called Pat and I said, “He has on cowboy boots with his suit.” And he said, “You’ve got to get over it. You're in Arkansas.” I said, “Okay, I'm over it. Okay, fine.”

And so, I went in. And I will never forget how personable he was and how kind he was to me. I didn't think we were going to get along that well. And we really did. I was about to go in the door of the building, of the room where they were all waiting on us. And he stopped me and said, “Just remember, truth rings like a bell. People know it when they hear it. Never forget that.”

And so, we went in to talk with them. Had no idea what we were going into. And there were a lot of them in there. There were probably, I'm going to say, seven to 10 people on one side of the table, on the side of that table. FBI agents, OIC people, lawyers, all from Washington. All Washington lawyers, FBI.

[00:47:37] KM: What were the questions – What were the questions they were asking?

[00:47:38] SM: Well, they didn't ask me any questions. I thought they were going to. I was excited to be able to tell them, “I was there. And I didn't say anything. And all that.” There was a stack of papers in the middle of the table, large stacks of papers. And I sat down. And first thing he said was, “Let's not all be on the side of the table. Why don't some of us go over there and be with her? And then some of us can –” I said, “It’s okay. That's alright. I'm fine.”

And so, then, I said, “I'd like to talk with you all.” And Bobby said, “Susan would like to tell you that she never saw anything illegal or unethical even that the Clintons did. So, we just want to start there.” And he took the papers, and he pushed them aside with his hand and he said, “I'd really not like to have to go through those. We would like to make you an offer. And the offer is universal immunity. And we do our jobs well. We've done this a lot. This is something that we've talked about, and we'd like to offer you that in exchange for your testimony.” And I said something like, “Well, I don't know anything that I could offer you in testimony. I never saw anything that was wrong, or illegal or anything.” And he said, “We believe we can convict you of multiple felonies.” And he had his hand on top of the papers. And he said, “We believe we have the evidence.” And I said, “Well, I'd like to see that.” And he said, “No, that's not necessary today. We're here to talk about this offer that we’re make you.” “That's just not going to happen. Because I don't know anything that anyone has done illegally. I was so naive. I just can't tell you.”

And I tell them I did not – I was not going to be doing that. It was not the way I thought things worked. And I would like to just answer what they thought I'd done wrong. And they didn't say anything. And I said, “Well, we're leaving.” So, we got up to leave. And they must have leaked that I was going to be there because we didn't. And there were a ton of television cameras out there to film me leaving being questioned by the Office of Independent Counsel. And I wish every person accused of something could see my face.

I mean, it is so naive, I say something like, “You know, this is really wrong. Things like this don't happen in America. I believe in the justice system. And I'm sure that everything will work out just fine.” And I have these big eyes and this little innocent face. And so embarrassing to look back on it knowing what was coming. And probably everyone knew what was coming who was involved but me.

And I just really thought at the time, “This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of that you're going to tell me that I have felonies that you're going to prove and send me to prison. And I know it's not true. It's just not true.” And so, I never believed any of it. And I never spoke to them again.

[00:50:47] KM: You didn't?

[00:50:48] SM: No.

[00:50:49] KM: What was the next thing that happened? I told them I wasn't going to speak with them again. No.

[00:50:54] KM: So, you go back to Michigan?

[00:50:56] SM: Listen, my father, who is on Omaha Beach on D-Day for our country, my family believed in that. There's no way I was going to accept that they were going to tell me I had broken the law and put me in jail and make me testify against somebody when I knew it was not true. And so, I really thought when I walked out that day that that was it. It was over. I told them. And there was no proof anywhere that I had done anything wrong, which later proves to be true.

[00:51:28] KM: So, you go back to Michigan after that and just like, “Everything's going to be fine. Tell Pat, there's nothing – Everything's going to be fine.” When is the next ball drop?

[00:51:39] SM: When I was indicted. I was at work. And somebody – Oh, a reporter for ABC News called me and said, “There's an indictment, a 20-page indictment with your name on it. Would you like to make a comment?” And I said, “You want to tell me more about what? Would you like to tell me a little bit more about that?” And they said, “Well, we're outside. We can meet you and talk with you.” And I said, “No, that won't be necessary. But thank you for calling.”

[00:52:13] KM: You didn't even know.

[00:52:14] SM: I had no idea.

[OUTRO]

[00:52:15] TW: That's the end of part one of the Susan McDougal interview with Kerry McCoy on Up in Your Business. Next week, we'll follow up from the point of the indictment being issued, and also tackle these subjects:

[00:52:26] KM: Susan's unexpected pardon from President Clinton. How she has started over what she's doing today.

To our listeners, thank you for spending time with us. We hope you've heard or learned something that's been inspiring or enlightening. I'm Kerry McCoy and I'll see you next time on Up in Your Business. Until then, be brave and keep it up.

[00:52:44] GM: You've been listening to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy. For links to resources you heard discussed on today's show, go to flagandbanner.com. Kerry's goal is simple, to help you live the American dream.

[END]