Originally from North Little Rock, Arkansas, Kerry McCoy moved to Dallas, Texas after high school to attend Miss Wades Fashion Merchandising School. She graduated from the one-year vocational school during the 1974 recession and was unable to find a job in her field. She quickly discovered her newly earned degree in fashion merchandising was useless during an economic downturn.
In 1975, Kerry used her $400 life savings and Arkansas Flag and Banner. She used that money to purchase a business permit, business cards and order forms. Many of the early days were spent distributing her cards to Central Arkansas businesses and selling flags door-to-door. In 1995, while attending a luncheon, she heard about a new sales platform called the Internet. Within days, Arkansas Flag and Banner entered the emerging Dot Com community. The business is now known worldwide as simply FlagandBanner.com.
From those humble beginnings, Kerry has created a radio show and magazine, along with expanding her business with FlagandBanner.com's sister site, OurCornerMarket.com. Read more about how Kerry McCoy became an enterprise.
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Transcript Begins:
EPISODE 229
[00:00:09] GM: Welcome to Up in Your Business, with Kerry McCoy, a production of flagandbanner.com. Through storytelling and conversational interviews, this weekly biography show and podcast offers listeners an insider's view into the commonalities of successful people and the ups and downs of risk taking. Connect with Kerry through her candid, funny, informative and always encouraging weekly blog. And now it's time for Kerry McCoy to get all up in your business.
[00:00:35] TM: Well, thank you Gray, I appreciate that. I'm Tom Wood. Not carry McCoy. Although, don't worry, everybody. She's here in the room. I'm usually one of those behind the scenes Up in Your Business staff. But today, I get to interview Kerry McCoy on her own program. And trust me, that doesn't happen very often. So, this is going to be fun.
As Kerry always starts the show, four decades of running a small business called Arkansas Flag and Banner. Now, of course, flagandbanner.com. During that time, Kerry McCoy decided to create this platform. She wanted to pay forward her experiential knowledge in a conversational way into a very listenable program.
Originally, she thought she'd be the one teaching others, but it didn't take very long and she realized, “Whoa! I'm learning a lot during this show.” And after listening to hundreds of successful people share their stories, some reoccurring traits started to pop up. For example, most guests believe in a higher power. They have the heart of a teacher. They're creative, because as I've heard Kerry say many times, business is creative. And of course, they all work hard. We're going to find out some of the inspirations behind those things as we talk to Kerry McCoy today on Up in Your Business.
But before I get started and introduce her to everybody, I want to let you know that if you miss any part of today's show or you want to hear it again, or maybe share it with some family or friends, there's a way. And Kerry’s son, Gray, is going to tell you how.
[00:01:54] GM: All UIYB past and present interviews are available at Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy's YouTube channel, Facebook page, the Arkansas Democrat Gazette’s digital version, flagandbanner.com’s website, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Just ask your smart speaker to play Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy. And by subscribing to our YouTube channel or flagandbanner.com’s email list, you will receive prior notification of that day's guest.
Back to you, Tom.
[00:02:22] TM: Well, all of you regular Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy listeners are in for a treat on today's show. I'm the editor of this show and podcast. And I get to hear every single word you say every single week. And I got to tell you, Kerry’s flair with interviewing entrepreneurs and other people around the state I think is really fed by your natural curiosity.
As I have edited shows, I've found you to be equally fascinated by bait fish farming, rocket scientists, politicians, brain surgeons. It doesn't matter what it is, your natural curiosity comes to the top. And that's what makes a good interviewer. But this show is just a tiny little part of what keeps Kerry McCoy occupied every day. Welcome to your own program.
[00:03:09] KM: Thank you, Tom. This is very strange and very relaxing to be on this side. It's much easier to be the interviewee than to be the interviewer. I'm excited to get to talk to you. I know you don't even need to put the questions together because I'll probably talk your ears off. You won't even get to ask anything.
[00:03:25] TM: That's okay. I love an interview where you ask one question, and 10 minutes later, you ask another one.
[00:03:30] KM: And since you're the editor on every one of my shows, I can say whatever I want, because you can edit it out.
[00:03:36] TM: Man, I never thought of that. But you're right.
[00:03:37] GM: As he frequently.
[00:03:40] KM: Yeah, he takes out a lot of stuff.
[00:03:42] TM: Well, let's start where you usually do. I want you to tell me a little bit about your parents, a little bit about your siblings, and where you were born and the whole beginning of Kerry.
[00:03:50] KM: You know, I'm glad you asked that, because I don't know if everybody knows this. My father is a Purple Heart Recipient. He was shot down in World War Two, actually twice. Once shot down, shot in the Darier. Went to the medics. Got the shrapnel taken out. Then flew again. And was shot down again, and was captured by the Germans, and was in prison or camp for two years. He did not – Here's the story of how he got shot down. He leaves the base. I don't know what base it was. And he flies out on a mission, and there's like, I don't know, 20 of their B52’s going to go out, bombers. He was a radio operator. He flies out. And all of a sudden, none of the people are behind him. And they're in a dogfight with a bunch of Germans. And they get shot down. And they parachute out. And he thinks – he’s in the back, and he thinks he can't get out. Everybody's jumped and he can't get out.
He, somehow or another, bangs out the back window and just jumps. But it's not a good place to jump. Because if you jumped there, you can hit the propellers and get chopped up. He says goodbye to my mother. Says a little, “This is for you, Sally,” he says. That's what he says. He says he jumps out the window and he gets captured by Germans. And they're marching across these farmers’ land. And his crew members are pitch forked to trees by the farmers.
[00:05:12] TM: Oh, my God.
[00:05:13] KM: So, he's so glad he's captured by Germans, because he's walking past his friends. Because the farmers were sympathetic to the Nazi cause. And so, he gets captured. And when he finally does come home two years later, mother doesn't know who he is. He's so thin. He's lost his teeth. He walks right up to her and says, “Hi,” and she doesn't even know who he is.
He's sitting at home 50 years later watching the History Channel. He never knew where the rest of the guys were that were in his fleet with him, and why there's just a couple of them out front and all the other ones were gone. And so, he's watching the History Channel and he hears the story of why.
[00:05:52] TM: That's unbelievable.
[00:05:52] KM: I show up at his house and he goes, “Oh, my God! I just found out what happened.” He said, “When we left, we were the first planes to leave off the runway. And right before we left, we found out that the Germans had found out about our mission. And so, they radioed a call back to everybody. And we were the first few out. We’re out of radio range back then. And never got the message. And the rest of them turned around and aborted the mission. But they never got the message.”
[00:06:19] TM: And they were sitting ducks.
[00:06:20] KM: Yep.
[00:06:21] TM: Oh, my God.
[00:06:22] KM: And then, it's becoming the end of World War Two and deliberating all the prison camps and everything. And the Red Cross comes and lets all the prisoners out, and has doughnuts and coffee. And these guys have not eaten in two years.
[00:06:39] GM: He only ate turnips in the prison camp, which is why we can never eat them.
[00:06:43] KM: We never had them. I was 25 before I had a turnip, cabbage and turnips. Like, “No! No cabbage. No turnip.” When they lay them out, these guys over-ate. Some of them died from overeating.
[00:06:55] TM: Yeah. How hard was it for you to get him to tell you that story?
[00:06:58] KM: I was probably 45-years-old before he ever told us those stories.
[00:07:03] TM: I could never get my dad to open up and tell me what he did during World War Two.
[00:07:06] KM: Never. That's a showstopper, don't you think?
[00:07:09] TM: That’s a show beginner. I'll tell you that. Wow! What about your mom? What about brothers and sister mother?
[00:07:14] KM: So, mother – I love this about my mother. She always says – My mother was real fun. But she says we never slept with our guys util we marry them. I said, “Mother, you only saw dad three times and then you married him.”
[00:07:25] GM: The statistical chances were like –
[00:07:30] KM: She’s like, “I think I went out with Brady a few more times than three times before I married him and slept with him.” I was like, “You can't really compare those things.” But it was the war times.
Mother goes to Washington. She was born in Batesville. My father was born in Pennsylvania. He's in Washington, because it's wartime. My mother is from Batesville. She goes to Washington to work as a secretary or something. And I'm not sure how they met. Maybe a blind date or something. And fell in love. Spent the first night staying up all night talking. And then he went off and did something. And then he came back a month later. And they spent another whole night staying up talking to him. And then he came back another time. And he was in Walla Walla, Washington. She flew to Walla Walla, Washington and married him with cigar band for a ring.
[00:08:14] TM: Oh, my God. You can't make that –
[00:08:16] GM: It’s so World War Two. I love it.
[00:08:19] KM: It’s so World War Two.
[00:08:20] TM: I know. It really is. It's like a movie waiting to be written.
[00:08:22] KM: And dad says, “You know, we grew up in the depression. You know, you went to work when you were 10 to feed your family. You know? I mean, you didn't go to work for money. You went to work to feed your family. I worked in the bakery. I was a little 10-year-old, 12-year-old, working in a bakery.” And he said, “You know, we were shabby clothes. We all slept in the same beds. You know?” He said, “You know, when we joined the service, we got us a bed ourselves. We got clean clothes. We got three meals a day.” He said, “I don't know how you ever make that great generation again. Because joining the service back then was like a step up in your life.” And Americans have it so nice now. Do I really want to go bunk up with a bunch of dudes when I have my own room and bathroom at the end of the hall? You know what I mean?
[00:09:08] TM: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And an interesting conversation with veterans is to whether they agree with mandatory service. Like, so many countries around the world have. Something like that.
[00:09:18] KM: Okay. When I was young, I was like, “No,” because I was young. But now that I'm old, I'm like, “Yes.” Because there's too many people that don't have a vision of what they want to do or how they want to do, and they're just kind of aimlessly trying to figure it out. And so, when you get in a group like that, and you have organized routines, you begin to find out what you're good at. And joining the service, that doesn't mean that you go into the war and you fight on the war. It just means you're service-oriented. You go help at hurricanes. You go feed the hungry.
[00:09:49] TM: Speaking of being prepared for life after you get out of your adolescence, I've heard you many times say you wish that high schools would teach more life skills, like, learning how to budget, learning how to parent, learning how to pay your tax. And they just don't do that. They don't spend time on those kind of life skills in high school.
[00:10:07] KM: No. My son-in-law didn't know he had to pay taxes. He's out there hanging siding after school when he was a kid. And he didn't have any really parental guidance. And so, he's just never thinks about you have to pay your taxes. And then, two or three years later, he gets a letter from the IRS that says, “You've got penalties and interest up to 20%.” And he's like, “What are you talking about?” He didn't know.
[00:10:27] TM: Wow! Yeah. You're a big proponent of vo-tech schools too, as opposed to everybody thinking they have to go to college, because you had a very positive vo-tech experience. Tell me about.
[00:10:36] KM: Yes. I'm not good in school. I was not very good in school. And I always joke that I was probably voted the least likely to succeed. But I just want you to know that I went back to my 50-year-reunion. And I got to make the speech at my 50-year reunion. And it was funny, I killed it.
And the other funny thing about – Not to brag. But it's great. It’s on YouTube. You should go watch it if you're my age, and you've had your 50-year reunion. You’ll totally relate to all the funny things that were back then. Like, girls that are my age will remember this. We rolled our hair on orange juice cans. Back then, we had smoking holes. You could go and smoke at lunch in your – The boy/girl smoking hall. Can you imagine?
[00:11:17] TM: I don't think there's anything to compare to the challenge of teaching kids back then compared to today when it comes to cellphones.
[00:11:25] KM: I cannot stand to watch my darling granddaughter just live on her phone. She's going to have a hook in her neck or something. But yeah, vo-tech schools. You got to go to vo-tech schools. They’re good.
[00:11:37] TM: Oh, they're – And so many jobs are available after you've gone through a vo-tech school. You can learn anything.
[00:11:42] KM: I told every one of my children not to go to college. And they all went and got degrees. If you want your kids do not go to college, tell them to go, and they won't go. I told all of them. I said, “For your college education, we could get you some real estate, a house. You could parlay it into another house, parlay it into another house. And by the time you're 30-years-old, you'd have your nice little nest egg. Or you can go to college, learn how to drink, learn how to do nothing, wear sloppy clothes with holes in them and not put on deodorant, and not cover your food in the microwave. And then when you get out, you'll have 20-years-worth of debt.”
[00:12:21] TM: Sounds like she had a video camera on me from ‘71 to ’75. That’s exactly –
[00:12:25] KM: Am I right?
[00:12:27] TM: Tell me about the years that I hear you refer to a lot of times at waitressing and what kind of skills you learn when you waitress that you still use today?
[00:12:35] KM: I could do any job, I would wait tables in Florida on the beach.
[00:12:40] TM: Wow!
[00:12:41] KM: It's just mindless and easy. Of course, I do here –
[00:12:46] GM: Mindless and easy.
[00:12:47] TM: Easy is not what I think of when I think of waitressing.
[00:12:50] GM: Waiting tables in a tourist location.
[00:12:51] KM: Running a small business is hard.
[00:12:55] TM: I'm not saying it's not hard. And the comparing of the two is not right and not what I mean. But I think waitressing is hard work.
[00:13:01] KM: Cute.
[00:13:02] TM: Not really, huh?
[00:13:03] KM: No. I'll go over, “What do you want? Okay, let me go till the cook.” He makes, “All right, I'll bring it back to you.” I mean, how is that hard?
[00:13:09] GM: I would not tip you if you came up to my table and said, “Hey, what do you want?”
[00:13:13] KM: I say that because I waited tables forever, cocktail tables and food tables, forever, while I'll start in Arkansas flag and Banner. And so, I say that. But I hear today customers are awful.
[00:13:24] GM: Oh, yeah.
[00:13:25] KM: It may not be the same today as it was when I did it.
[00:13:30] TM: We're going to take a quick break. Kerry McCoy is talking to us about her life. And the way she – Well, we haven't even gotten to the way she started Flag and Banner. But we will get to that here after we take a quick break. I'm Tom Wood. And this week on up in your business with Kerry McCoy, we're actually talking to Kerry McCoy.
[BREAK]
[00:13:47] GM: You're listening to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy, a production of flagandbanner.com. Over 40 years ago with only $400, Kerry founded Arkansas Flag and Banner. During the last four decades, the business has grown and changed along with Kerry's experience and leadership knowledge. In 1995, she embraced the internet and rebranded her company as simply flagandbanner.com.
In 2004, she became an early blogger. Since then, she has founded the nonprofit Friends of Dreamland ballroom, began publishing her magazine, Brave. And in 2016, branched out into this very radio show, YouTube channel and podcast. In 2020, Kerry McCoy Enterprises acquired ourcornermarket.com, an online company specializing in American-made plaques, signage and memorials for over 20 years. And more recently, opened a satellite office in Miami, Florida. Telling American-made stories, selling American-made flags, the flagandbanner.com Back to you, Tom.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[00:14:46] TM: You're listening to Up in Your business with Kerry McCoy. And I am Tom Woods, usually the editor of the show and the podcast. But I'm guest hosting the show this week because our guest is Kerry herself. It's fantastic. I'm telling you. Her son, Gray, is with us as well, as he always is. Let me ask you about something that you're going to hear the word and you're going to think, “Oh, what is he asking me on this program?” But it's interesting to find out people who work so hard and take care of themselves so well. Tell me about your body clock.
[00:15:16] KM: You are so right on. That is a weird question.
[00:15:19] TM: Are you a late-night person? Are you an early morning person? Tell me what a day is like for –
[00:15:22] KM: Yes. I’ve been up since 4.
[00:15:25] TM: That's exactly what I kind of thought.
[00:15:27] KM: Aha. Now, when I was young, I stayed up all night. Slept late. Worked hard.
[00:15:33] GM: It was the 90s.
[00:15:34] KM: It was the 90s.
[00:15:35] TM: The 90s is hard.
[00:15:37] KM: Yeah. When I was young, I stayed up late. I didn't get married seriously to my husband, Grady, till I was 32. I did marry once when I was 24, almost 25. But it wasn't a real marriage. Back then, if you got pregnant, you had to get married. My dad came over when I was about seven or eight months pregnant, my Purpleheart, World War Two dad came over and said to my future husband, who is the son of a doctor, who he just loved his parents, and said to him, “I don't have to bring a shotgun over here to get you to marry my daughter.” He was kidding kind of, but not really. You know? And he was like, “Okay. Okay.”
I'll tell you how I ended up getting married. You're not going to believe it. I'm not doing anything. And my girlfriend who lives down the street, God love her, she calls me up and she says, “There is a preacher in my retail store who just came by to visit with me. He’s a friend of mine. And if he says if you come up here, he'll marry you and sign the weddings.”
Her retail store is a bridal shop. She sells recycled bridal clothes. I run up there in a bright orange, pregnant moo-moo dress. My husband's in his waiter uniform. He's about to go to work. We run up there. Her preacher man says, “Yes, I have the power to marry you.” He writes – he doesn't have his Bible with him. He writes down a few notes on it that I still have that I gave to my daughter. It was a girl. And so, he writes a few notes down. And we stand together around all her bridal gowns in her store. And there's customers walking around out in the front of the lobby going, “I think somebody's getting married back there.”
[00:17:20] GM: I did not know this story.
[00:17:22] KM: You did not. And he goes, “You say I do. And I say I do.” He's like, “Okay. Right.” And I kissed him. And he left and went to work. And I went home.
[00:17:28] GM: The guy signed your certificate.
[00:17:28] KM: And the guy signed my wedding – And I got married, yeah.
[00:17:32] TM: All the customers were saying, “This the greatest bridal shop I’ve ever been to.”
[00:17:36] GM: They must be so inspired.
[00:17:39] TM: Wow! Well, that's quite a story.
[00:17:42] KM: I know.
[00:17:43] TM: When did that lifestyle of yours that was so crazy changed?
[00:17:46] KM: Well, when I was pregnant with my daughter. I mean, I was partying with my – I was waiting tables. I was a cocktail waitress. Starting my business. Dating. It was the late 70s. I didn't know the ramifications of everything that you do. You're young. I'm 22 years old. I don't know what's going on. We're just partying and having a good time. And then you get pregnant and then you find out having babies is really hard. I am so lucky to have had the great parents that I have. Because they just supported me and helped me. And there was no Internet back then. I had no idea how to raise a child. I was the youngest of three.
I mean, I think my daughter ate hamburger meat in the first six weeks. I didn't know that you don't feed babies food. I was like, “Why does she cry all the time?” And mother's like, “Maybe she's hungry. Make her a meatloaf.” And I'm like, “Oh, wait. Let's make a meatloaf.” I mean, I had no idea. And the major book back then is Dr. Spock. And his kids say he was the worst father ever. And he was the Bible of baby books. I had that book and I'd read it’d be like, “Don't pick your baby up. let your baby cry. Don't sleep with your baby.” Just all these bizarre things.
I mean, I ended up having four kids. So, I got to practice a lot. And I got a lot better at it. But God love you, Megan, for having to live with your crazy mother. I learned on her. You know what we call her.
[00:19:16] TM: What is it?
[00:19:17] KM: The burnt pancake. You know why? You know when you throw the first one out? She don’t like – She hates it when we say that. I just had to say it on the radio, Megan, because you hate it so much. Actually, I will tell you this. She is absolutely my best friend. We talk all the time every day.
[00:19:32] GM: Yeah. She works at the flag shop. Yeah.
[00:19:32] KM: Oh, yeah. Where I see her all the time.
[00:19:35] TM: Oh, my gosh.
[00:19:35] KM: And now she's forgiven me for a lot of practicing on her. I practiced on her.
[00:19:41] TM: Until you dredged up all this horror again for her on the radio. And now, it’s like, “Oh, my God! We're back.” Well, let's go from all of that craziness, how in the world you turned out this good? I have no idea.
[00:19:53] KM: Parenting. My parents were great.
[00:19:55] TM: Well, there you go. I mean, after all those routing of your crazy life, then you end up finally becoming a business person in downtown Little Rock. But you were in North Little Rock for a while. You're working out of your car selling flags.
[00:20:09] KM: Yes. Even during all of that, I was ambitious. Unlike today, everybody was equal. The doctor in the neighborhood lived four houses down from us. A little bit nicer, but not a mansion in Chenal. The preacher, the Methodist preacher, lived on the same street. Our family lived there. We were all very middle class.
And middle class back then was not frivolous at all. Everybody's very conscientious. And they're all World War Two Depression people. So, they're very conscientious. Mother was going to save money in case something happened and do without so I could have something. I think that really instills in you, and in all of her three children, to work hard so that your mother didn't have to not have a new pair of shoes, or not get the new coat she wanted, or something like that.
I think we were all very ambitious from an early age. I went to a vo-tech school. It's wonderful at a vo-tech school. It moves really slow. You do all the homework in class. You don't go, “Okay, go home and read that and come back and tell me about it.” I can't do that. But I read it in class, and I can be taught a different way.
And so, by the time you get through a vo-tech school and you end up being great at it, and then you come back, you're just ambitious. I will say this though, when I graduated from that vo-tech school, I thought I was going to go into fashion merchandising because I love clothes. If anybody ever knows me, they know that I am – What do they call them? Clothes horse? If I had a vise, which I have vices, but it is probably vanity. I love clothes, and makeup, and hair, and fingernails.
[00:21:50] GM: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Can confirm. Can confirm.
[00:21:52] KM: Shoes. I went to school for that. Because my mother comes in – I tried to go to college. Failed at college. Three months in there, working as hard as I could. Days. I was like I came home, the tail between my legs. One of the most depressing times of my life. Just like they always say, the darkest, right before the dawn.
My mother comes in, because I had 17 magazine clothes. And she comes in and she goes to the back and she says, “Honey, there's an ad in the back here for Miss Wade's Fashion Merchandising School. And you know you love clothes. You wear hats.”
[00:22:27] GM: Who does that?
[00:22:28] KM: I mean, right?
[00:22:29] GM: Yeah, right.
[00:22:30] KM: You wear hats all the time. Crazy hats all the time. And she says, “It's a one-year vo-tech school. Why don't you go there?” And I first thought, “Another school? Oh, my God. Really? But they ponied up the money. And they sent me off to his vo-tech school. And first week there, I called my boyfriend back home and I started crying. I really never had boyfriends at all. But I did happen to have one at this time. And I called him at home and I said, “I can't do this. I'm so homesick. I'm crying. I'm at a phone booth.” Because that's what you had to do back then. He said, “You need to stay. My mother said you need to stay.” I was like, “I don't want to stay.” I stayed. And at the end of the year, I was one of the best in the class.
[00:23:09] TM: Best decision you ever made.
[00:23:10] KM: Yes. Hardest and best thing I ever did. It’s exactly like your parents keep telling you. It's just really hard. You just have to do it. But then I graduated in 1974. I graduated high school in ‘72. I graduated from Miss Wade's vo-tech school in ‘74. When did we have the gas crisis with Jimmy Carter with the lines around the service stations?
[00:23:30] TM: Mid-70s?
[00:23:32] KM: 1974. I couldn't get a job in my industry. Because what do you give up? Buying clothes and eating out. I couldn't get a job at my industry at all. I got a job selling flags for company called Betsy Ross Flag Girls, because I had to have a job. I wasn't going to go home. I have never not worked since I was 15.
I mean, I worked at Kentucky Fried Chicken. I worked at Parkhill Theater. I mean, you just work. And so, I got this job at Betsy Ross Flag girls. And I worked there six months. And my roommate, she left. And everybody was leaving. And I was left alone. I didn’t have any friends. Left in Dallas. No boyfriend. And my mother said – My mother, she's smart. She said, “I wonder who sells flags in Little Rock, Arkansas?” I said, “I don’t know.” She's, “Well, why don’t you make some phone calls and find out?”
She taught when you use the phone. And she said, “call the Secretary of State and find out who they buy it from. What they bought from somebody in California?” She said, “Call these people and ask them.” I called them. They said, “Well, we buy it from somebody in Mississippi.”
And then she said – And this is funny because I know this woman's grandkids, they live down the street from me. She said, “Call the only entrepreneur woman that I can think of in North Little Rock, Irma Dumas Dress Shop. It was like the best dress shop in North Little Rock.” We could never buy clothes there. We sewed all of our clothes. Back then, a lot of people sewed. We sewed all of our clothes. Mother said, “Call Irma Dumas and ask her how you start in business.”
And I can remember to this day standing there calling her, my knee shaking. And I told her how it was. She didn’t know how was. And I said, “I’m thinking about starting a flag company. Tell me about owning your own business.” And she – I could not tell you what she said to this day. But it was encouraging. I don't know. Mother said, “Okay, you've done everything right.”
[00:25:13] GM: You've done your market research.
[00:25:15] KM: You've done your market research. You've showed your willingness to face your fears. She said it takes $50 to start a business. And today, it takes $150, people. If you want to start a business, it takes $150. You got to go buy a city permit for $150. And that's it. Back then, it took $50. She said, “Good.” Took me down. We got a city permit. You get a tax ID number. She said, “You pick out a name. “And I said, “I'm going to be Available Flag and Banner Company, because flags were hard to find and not very available.” And she said, “Honey, my daughter's not going to be available anything.” She said, “How about Arkansas?” I said, “Okay.”
[00:25:55] TM: That's awesome.
[00:25:56] GM: That's so funny. I forgot about that.
[00:25:57] TM: It would never have occurred to protest the available. It just didn’t pop into my head. But a mom would.
[00:26:02] GM: Oh, yes.
[00:26:01] KM: Yeah. She goes, “No. No.”
[00:26:05] GM: I was just reflecting after all of this. And Mimi was the impetus of so much of the decisions that you made.
[00:26:14] KM: My mother, when she got old and got where she could no longer hear. We quit being able to talk. That's when I really began to miss her input.
[00:26:26] GM: And then you kind of like don't realize it's gone until it's gone.
[00:26:31] KM: I called her all – Just like Megan calls me all the time. I called her all the time. This is what happened at work today. We've been talking. And we would talk. She always – My mother literally suffers from – What's that fear where you can’t go to your house?
[00:26:47] GM: Agoraphobia. And it’s fear of crowds is what it is.
[00:26:50] KM: My mother seriously suffers from agoraphobia.
[00:26:52] GM: Yeah. She’s very introverted.
[00:26:55] KM: She was very introverted. She could stay at home forever and never leave. And one time she stayed at home for a solid year when she broke her ankle.
[00:27:02] GM: In her 80s.
[00:27:03] KM: Or 70s. And dad would bring her food, and she’d get so mad because he'd forget to turn the tray around. And when he'd hand it to her, she'd have to turn that. Just set the drink on the other side of the tray. I said, “Mother, do you hear how –” He always brings that tray the wrong way, facing the wrong way.” I’m like, “Mom. Yeah, you need to get out of the house.” She ended up having to take medicine to get out of the house for that episode, because it was so bad.
But the funny thing about my mother is she never really worked much or anything. But once I hit junior high, because I was the last child to leave, she was like, “Well, I need to go do something. And she joined the Kelly girls, where you go out and you work part-time jobs for people back when they had that service. She joined Kelly girls and she kept getting these part-time positions. Like, some woman would go on maternity leave and she'd fill her spot.
My mother would be scared to death. She has not worked since she met my father in Washington. She has been raising children for 15 years. And she's got agoraphobia a little bit. And she's going to face her fears and go and do these things. And that really speaks to the example your parents make for you about facing fear and handling stuff. They were shining examples of how to be.
And the odd thing is she went to work at the Democratic Party. And the girl was going to go and leave. And the woman never came back. And my mother ended up being the secretary for the Democratic Party of Arkansas.
[00:28:40] TM: Wow!
[00:28:42] KM: What? During the hay day, Jim Guy Tucker, Bill Clinton. During its heyday when it was big time stuff. If you would have told her that was going to happen to her 10 years before, she'd been like, “There's no way.” I mean, she's on the phone as a secretary coordinating things with people for the Democratic Party of Arkansas, my mother.
[00:29:02] TM: The Betsy Ross thing was door-to-door.
[00:29:04] KM: I was door to door for five years. When my daughter was born, I moved it into my house. And we did it telephone sales. Because they deregulated the telephone system. And Ma Bell was being deregulated. So, phones got cheap. And you could put them in your house. And so, I bought an 800 number back then, and it called the seven states around Arkansas.
There are seven states that touch Arkansas. Did y'all know that? Six states touched Arkansas.
[00:29:32] GM: I was going to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Aha.
[00:29:35] KM: There are six states. I didn't know that. When you bought 800 numbers, you bought them in rings. And they got more expensive as they go out. And so, I bought the first ring I could afford and then advertised in the yellow pages in all of those places. Like it’s a huge marketing gamble, the first one I ever did. And it paid off.
[00:29:52] TM: Well, sure did.
[00:29:52] KM: And then came out the Lillian Vernon catalog. Does anybody remember those?
[00:29:56] TM: I do remember those?
[00:29:57] KM: Well, all of a sudden, Lillian Vernon has changed everything because data started becoming axiom and all of that. People started learning about data, and the power of data. And mail order started becoming a big thing. And I kept getting these Lillian Vernon catalogs in the mail. I said, “Well, I'm going to start meddling catalogs.” I ended up making a catalog. And went from telemarketing to catalog sales.
And in 1995, I was at UALR doing one of their business seminars that they do, which I think everybody should do. If you ever get a chance to do anything at their small business development center. They're just a wealth of information if you're starting off. Teach how to read income statements and financial statements and stuff. And I'm at one of those seminars. And I'm sitting at a roundtable with this girl, and they're talking about this newfangled thing called the Internet. It’s 1995. And it just happens to be at my roundtable is Marla Johnson, the head of Aristotle.
[00:30:50] TM: Oh, God. Perfect.
[00:30:52] KM: I become friends with Marla. And she says, “We can't call you Arkansas Flag and Banner. That's too much to type for an URL, address, an internet address.
[00:31:01] TM: URL, yeah.
[00:31:02] KM: Yeah. So, she says, “How about flag-banner?” Marla's very first flagandbanner.com was flag-banner.com. And then when I talk on the phone, I'd go, “Flag-banner.” And everybody was like, “D-A-S-H?” I was like, “Oh, no. That's no good.” I called up Marlin, and she bought me flagandbanner. But we probably still have flag-banner.com.
[00:31:24] GM: We do.
[00:31:24] TM: Well, the growth from that pattern that you just described, and then finally the internet, and then finally the realization. I'm going to take a break here and we'll come back and find out how this all happened. But you realized, “Oh, my God. I need more space. What's this old building in downtown Little Rock?”
And next up on the show, the acquisition of Taborian Hall from Kerry McCoy. You're listening to Up and Your Business. And we will be back after a short break.
[BREAK]
[00:31:50] TM: Let's talk about the biggest fundraiser that happens every year for the Dreamland Ballroom, upstairs at Taborian Hall, the home of flagandbanner.com. And the next event has been set Saturday, February 11th. Tickets are already on sale at dreamlandballroom.org. Make sure you buy yours early. Get a table so you're right up front.
And if you're interested in sponsoring Dancing into Dreamland, you can contact the director of the event, Matthew McCoy, right there at flagandbanner.com and ask him about sponsorship opportunities. Also, one more thing, volunteers are needed. The Friends of Dreamland need plenty of help setting up and running and even breaking down the event afterwards. Again, Matthew McCoy can help you if you're interested in volunteer opportunities. But for sure, buy some tickets for Dreamland Ballroom’s Dancing into Dreamland, February 11th, 2023.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[00:32:42] TM: You're back with up in your business with Kerry McCoy. Although, I'm Tom Woods sitting in as a guest host this week, because we're actually interviewing Kerry herself. And we've learned a lot about the early years, a lot about influences, a lot about things that you have incorporated into your business life now. And I want to jump into Taborian hall right now, which when that building was downtown, it was not in great shape when you bought it. Was it?
[00:33:06] KM: No. In fact, my husband was working for Crews and Associates. And they were on the top of the Union Bank building, very top floor. And they could look down and they could look right through the roof of my Taborian Hall out their window. And at the time we're in one of our – Was it Desert Storm? I think we were in Desert Storm. And so, there have been some stuff on the TV about they'd bombed the Baghdad Hotel. And all of my husband's bond daddy friends up there would say, “Look, your wife just bought the Baghdad Hotel down there.” Because it was just bombed out looking.
But homeless people had lived in it and had built fires in it. And it had weakened the trusses in the roof. And we'd had a big snow like the year before. And it was heavy on the roof. And it had fallen through. This enormous trust made out of trees that you can't even find anymore. These 12x2 that made up the trusses, it had fallen through and fallen through two floors and pushed out the side of the brick building.
But I didn't really see all of that because I'm not an engineer. I mean, I could see what had happened to this damage. But I think if I was older and knew what I know today, I would be intimidated. And I think that's true about every single thing I've done in life. And I've known how hard this radio show was. I might not have started it.
[00:34:29] TM: Yeah, I understand. Yeah.
[00:34:30] KM: If I didn't know how hard Flag and Banner was, I might not have started it. But you just do things. You're just driven to do things. You just have to listen to life and kind of go where they take you.
Listening to life, I am living in Little Rock. I drive down the 630 Freeway every day to go to my office in North Little Rock, because Flag and Banner is now in a cottage, 1890 house in North Little Rock on Main Street, again, that my mother owned and was letting me have rent free for a few years because the insurance on it so expensive being vacant. She said, “If you'll live in it, I won't have to pay that expensive insurance.”
[00:35:05] TM: Interesting.
[00:35:07] KM: And I painted it for and was a good tenant. I had moved myself in there because I put my daughter in little St. Pat's that was right down the street. Ans so, I could walk down there and pick her up and bring her back home. And everything worked out again. Again, family support.
I'm driving across to North Little Rock every day. And I’m always driving down the 630 Freeway. Ond over to the left, just past the Capitol, is this just stately red brick, three-storey building with columns that I just look at every day. And I just think, “It looks like a big bank.” And it just draws me in.
And somehow or another, I find out that it's for sale. That it's got liens and back taxes on it, and it's up for sale. And Mark Abernathy, who I interviewed on the show, had bought it for a couple of thousand dollars at an auction or something and then couldn't figure out what to do with it. Because I mean, what are you going to do with it? You know?
And so, I went to him and I said, “Can I buy it?” And he said, “Yeah.” And he charged me $20,000. I think he only paid 2000 for it. But most people are like, “20? You bought that building for $20,000? Well, that seemed like a lot.”
I remember that I went home and told my father-in-law and he was like, “That's the stupid thing I’ve ever heard. Look at that building. What are you doing?” And then I went and told my parents and they were like, “That doesn't seem smart.” And I'm sure my mother went and talked to my dad or something. Because, I mean, I just could not leave it alone.
And finally, my dad came over one day, and he brings over a $20,000 check, which is unbelievable that my parents had a $20,000 check. But finally, late in life, they started to kind of get some money after the kids were gone. And so, they brought over a check for $20,000.
And I'll never forget, I came on the back porch. He goes “Come on out here.” And I went out on the back porch of the office and he said, “I got this for you. Here's your money.” And he handed me this check. And I looked at it, it was $20,000. And when he handed it to me like this, over his shoulder, and looked away from me and went, “Well, I’ll never see that.” Stormed off. And I said, “Dad, I promise, you'll see it again.”
[00:37:12] TM: He’s walking away and you're making promises.
[00:37:15] KM: And I didn't think he would, because I think that was summertime. And it went from renovation of being 100,000 to 150,000. And
[inaudible 00:37:25] bank was going to loan me the 100,000. When it went 150,000, they were like, “No, ma'am. We're out. It's November. It's right before Thanksgiving.” And in Arkansas, in November, it rains. It's raining in that big hole in that building. I'm not sleeping at night. I'm thinking I'm going to lose dad's $20,000. What am I going to do? I'm just manic.
And I just walk into Twin City Bank. It was called Twin City Bank back then in North Little Rock America. And I walk in and I said, “I need to see a loan officer.” And she says, “Hi.” I walk in. I see Ed standing there. Ed doesn't talk. He's like a sphinx. He doesn't talk. Even after I got to know him for 20 years later, he doesn’t talk. Ed Owens. He’s been there forever. He’s like the VP now, you know? But he's just one of those guys that don’t talk.
I walk in his room and I said, “Hello. I'm Kerry. And I bought this building.” And I walk back and forth in front of his desk, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Rant-rant-rant-rant-rant-rant. What I've done? Ranting and pacing. What I've done? What I've got to do? What's going to happen? I got to have this money. Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. Neither one of us ever sit down. And he goes, “Okay. I'll call you. Give me your card.” And so, I left.
The next day he calls me and says, “I'll give you the money. I took it to committee. They had just deregulated banks. And we're going to start letting banks cross over into other cities.” Back then banks couldn't be in other cities to stop what's going on now. Conglomerates. They just deregulated banks. And Twin City Bank in North Little Rock wanted to go into Little Rock. And they wanted to put a sign on the 630 Freeway on my building and say, “Funded by Twin City Bank.” And they made took a risk with me and let me do it.
[00:38:58] TM: Wow! Timing was perfect. And you didn't even know it.
[00:39:01] KM: We broke ground Thanksgiving weekend. And I'll never forget this. You had to pull the old roof off to put the new roof on. And when you put old roofs off of old buildings, they could fall to the ground, especially if you're missing the third floor like this one. I have two guys up there. One of them has four teenage children, young and teenager, and he's walking around the edge of that. They're tying ropes with cranes 400 feet in the air. And they're walking on the edge of that building and they're pulling sheets of that roof off on Thanksgiving weekend. And I'm thinking, “These guys could die up there. What am I doing? Why am I doing this?”
I'm telling you, I have to look back. Again, naivety. I mean, if I had a thought about it, I'd have been like, “No, don't go up there. Don't do that. That's just dangerous.” But they did. They pulled the roof off. We put it on.
[00:39:53] TM: And so, the process of getting that building back into shape, give me a years –
[00:39:59] KM: The first year we moved in, we just put a roof on it and got into the first floor only. That was all we could do. We couldn't even have heat. We had space heaters. Every week, we had to bring in propane and put new space heaters. And we stood around space heaters in the winter. And then the phone would ring. We'd run over and answer the phone and we’d go back and stand around space heaters. I mean, that's how slow life was before the internet.
I mean, I think they just invented fax machines, which we thought was like a revelation. And I always said, for listeners that don't know, on the third floor of the Taborian Hall is the Dreamland Ballroom. Before I bought the building, when I first started becoming obsessed with it, I was pregnant with son, Matthew, who is now the Executive Director of the Friends of Dreamland Ballroom. And I would sneak down there and I would go in the front door and I’d yell to see if there are any homeless people there, “Hello?” And sometimes there were, and I'd run off. And sometimes there weren't. And I'd sneak through. And it took several visits to make it up to the third floor. I’d look at the first floor and then I say, “Okay.” And then I go to the second floor. And you couldn't really walk around up there because the big truss had fallen through. And then two sets of stairs, and one stair was completely blocked. And then I found another one. And you could kind of crawl under some debris where the roof had fallen in. It made this kind of channel, this little hallway. And I crouched down, and I crawled through there.
And when I came out and turned around and looked back at the Dreamland Ballroom stage, and the whole box seats and everything, I'm telling you, Tom, it was a spiritual experience. The roof was off. The birds were flying around. The sun was shining in. I'm pregnant, nesting, like you wouldn't believe. I guess. I don’t know. I mean, it was just gorgeous. And that's when I became just manic about I had to have it. And you know, to this day, people can walk up there. And some people still get that spiritual feeling from it.
[00:41:55] TM: I can completely understand the epiphany you had when you looked around, though, and you saw it. Because the history of that place is just one of the really startling stories about downtown Little Rock.
[00:42:04] KM: I had no idea. I had no idea what that building spoke to me so much. But it sure did. And after we got in, we're standing around those heaters on the first floor, these old timers would come up, these old black men will come up, and they'd look to the window and put their hands over their eyes and then try to look through the window and look in there. What I'd say to them, I'd run out there on the front sidewalk and say, “Hey!” They go, “Who are you? What do you do?” I tell them what I did. And they go, “Oh, I used to –” And they tell me stories. And I began to learn all about the history.
And my favorite old man used to come down. Well, there's two. There was Leon Majors. He just died a couple years ago. And then there was Max Honeycutt. And Max Honeycutt had the Honeycutt Hotel. And his brother had the Confection, which is what they called bakeries. And Max Honeycutt had a gold M and a gold H on his tooth. I loved him so much. And I said, “Give me some pictures from when you were back here.” And he said, “My house burned down. I'm living with my sister. I don't have one picture when I used to be back here.”
But I did manage to hire a historian, Berna Love, who did end up writing a book about it. And we did end up getting a lot of interviews. And we ended up giving all those interviews and all the history and all the work that we did together to the PBS. And they ended up making a documentary. We did save a lot of it. But a lot of the old guys that already passed on.
[00:43:25] TM: there's so much about that place that makes you realize what a difference our city was in 1945 right after the war, to now, and the way that entire circuit of entertainment, all through the Midwest, down to the south down, in New Orleans. We were a huge part of that. And it's Dreamland Ballroom, where all those entertainers played.
[00:43:47] KM: You’re talking about the Chitlin Circus. You're talking about the Chitlin Circus. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it really was. And I learned so much about black history. I did not know that – And I think it was the turn of the century, it was 1890 or 1910 that we had more black senators in congress than we've ever had. Did you know that, Tom?
[00:44:07] TM: I think I learned that in that PBS documentary?
[00:44:09] KM: Yes. And see, people don't realize it. Little Rock used to be called the prosperous city. And the blacks used to be called the prosperous people in the newspaper, the prosperous people. 9th Street was just hugely prosperous.
[00:44:21] TM: and completely self-sufficient. Banks, doctors, everything that you needed.
[00:44:26] KM: Mm-hmm. And when you talk to those old timers, they were like, Oh, I had a good business till desegregation. It was like Walmart kind of came to town. And every one of their customers started shopping in other stores because they could. And the prices were probably cheaper. Just like we've done in all these small communities. Walmart comes to town. We bankrupt small five and dime stores. You know? It's progress. But –
[00:44:52] GM: Expense of a group of people.
[00:44:53] KM: Yeah. It just really ended up bankrupt in all of 9th Street. I think
[inaudible 00:44:57] Funeral Home is the only black business left before the 1960s. I think it's over on 12th or something. But every black business ended up getting bankrupt. Well, the white people didn't shop in the black businesses. And when the black people left –
[00:45:11] GM: No market left.
[00:45:12] KM: No market left.
[00:45:12] TM: Yep, customer base gone. That's it. Can't do business.
[00:45:16] KM: No one could have predicted that though, you know?
[00:45:20] TM: Were politicians in the city and so on, were they appreciative that somebody, you, had taken on this task?
[00:45:27] KM: The mayor was?
[00:45:27] TM: Oh, yeah? Really?
[00:45:29] KM: Oh, yeah. He said, “This white elephant has been driving me nuts. It needs to be torn down because there's homeless people there. But it's got all this history with it and everything. But I’m getting all this flak from these history people.” He said, “I got another building. Do you want to buy it too?”
[00:45:43] GM: Oh, yeah. What was it?
[00:45:45] KM: It was the Mosaic Templar, down the street. He was like, “Can you buy the Mosaic Templar?” I said, “I’ve already looked at the Mosaic Templar. I want my building.”
[00:45:53] TM: So, now for people who've never been there, you've got the retail outlet on the main floor. You got offices and administration kind of in sales on the second floor, and then Dreamland Ballroom up on top.
[00:46:03] KM: I always thought, since I bought it, and started all of that around ‘1990, ‘91. I always thought by 2000 we’d have the Dreamland Ballroom up and running. I had no idea that business would change so much from 1990 to 2000.
In 2000, the internet is really starting to finally – Well, it’s not completely taken off. But people aren't –Businesses are making money 24/7. Business that can only make money four weekends of the year is not a viable business. And construction materials and people are expensive. To renovate the Dreamland Ballroom, I would have to have a million dollars. And I would never be able to pay the note back with four weekends out of the month. We turned it into a nonprofit called Friends of Dreamland. And we were able to get grants from the National Park Service to make it ADA accepted. We've now got an elevator. It’s only been working about six months. We got a handicap bathroom about three months ago. We're slowly getting it to where it can be used and not have to pay this million-dollar note payment back. Now, I did have offers to turn it into apartments, to turn it to restaurants. And if I really was this good businesswoman that everybody says I am, I would have done that. But I just could not do it. I just could not do it.
[00:47:24] TM: That’s to our benefit, I think, as a city.
[00:47:26] KM: In the long run, yes. But probably not to my bank account. I mean, it's like a – What’s that song where there’s a hole in daddy’s arm where all the money goes? There’s a hole in my building where all my money goes.
[00:47:42] TM: Well, and thinking of that, what in the world inspires you or makes you confident about buying more businesses? All of a sudden, in the last couple of three years, Our Corner Market is part of the Flag and Banner family. Then another satellite location in Miami, Florida. This is some very strong smart.
[00:48:03] KM: Smart, smart action.
[00:48:04] TM: Smart and strong action.
[00:48:05] KM: So, we went from door-to-door sales until gas prices got too high. And they deregulated the telephone. We went to telephone marketing. Then they began to use data in a clever way. We went to catalog sales. Then I hear about the internet at UALR. We're like, “We got to get on that gravy train,” which almost bankrupted me because nobody was ready to put their credit cards in there as early as I wanted them to start. And nobody was really ready to use it. But when 9/11 happened, I started selling more flags on the internet. People suddenly got over their fear of putting their credit card on. And it's been going great ever since. So then, Google starts. And I start with Google. I was such an early customer with them. They used to send me Christmas presents. I have a Google beach towel. I have a Google refrigerator.
[00:48:53] GM: Aha! It’s a Google-branded mini fridge that lives in the hallway of Flag and Banner.
[00:48:57] KM:
[inaudible 00:48:57].
[00:48:58] GM: No. But it's adorable.
[00:49:00] KM: Google has gotten so mammoth. We spend so much money on Google advertising. But you have to. They got you over a barrel. We do that. And every time we go to our marketing meeting, which, by the way, we have a marketing meeting every week, which is really just a game show almost.
[00:49:23] TM: I've been in a couple.
[00:49:24] GM: Can confirm.
[00:49:25] KM: Have you been into a lot of them?
[00:49:26] TM: Oh, yeah.
[00:49:27] KM: Oh, God. They’re not any better time, Tom.
[00:49:30] GM: Just more people. More fun.
[00:49:32] KM: More people. More fun. Arkansas Flag and Banner gross 10% every year. 10% of $4 million is $400,000. I'll be dead before I hit 10 million in sales. And so, when COVID happened, all these little mom and pops who never made these big internet commitments like me that work out of their home like I used to ended up making a fine little living. But they can't sell their business because there's the business is just them.
[00:50:01] TM: Yes, I see.
[00:50:03] KM: And so, I thought, well, we'll try and buy a couple of them. We haven’t, today, since COVID, bought two flag companies and then another plaque company, Our Corner Market. We bought three. And on all different prices and all different kinds, we're kind of learning about acquisition and how to do it. And that is a great way to grow your business exponentially in one year.
[00:50:29] TM: It's the answer to that problem you thought you had of only 10% growth. Now, suddenly, you've got all these other avenues. I wondered to myself where the confidence came to do that?
[00:50:39] KM: Well, we didn't have it. We almost talked ourselves out of it. How many times son, Gray?
[00:50:42] GM: Many, many, many, many.
[00:50:43] KM: But you know me. I’m like, “Got to go. Got to go. Got to go.”
[00:50:46] TM: Got to go. Got to get it done. With the young half of the family working in flagandbanner.com, you've got a long future ahead of you had to continue to do this.
[00:50:56] KM: Yes. I would not be doing this if I didn't have three of my four children working in the flag business, who are owners, and who are doing a great job, and who give confidence to everybody that works down there. Because if my husband and I are 60-years-old and if they're like, “Well, I should get off this going down ship. If they're going to retire, what's going to happen to me?” But now they don't have to worry about that. They've got a whole another generation of people that are doing a good job of running the company.
[00:51:21] TM: Well, we’re running out of time. And I want to spend just a couple of minutes talking to you about how you do this show week-to-week, and how impressive your research is, and how you've improved as an interviewer, and how your natural curiosity is just so inspiring when I listen to these shows? Because honest to God, as an editor of a program, I hear every word of every show.
[00:51:42] KM: I’m sorry.
[00:51:42] TM: Oh, no. Not at all. I mean, I can't tell you the last time I've edited a show, because I do a lot of the work at home, that I haven't stopped along the way and said, “Wendy, you know what I just learned?”
[00:51:54] KM: That's the same way I feel when I'm learning about my guests.
[00:51:56] TM: Yes.
[00:51:58] KM: I have to go and do two or three days’ worth of work. And then I come in and I board the marketing department. I go, “Do you know that this guy.” It’s like I’m in college.
[00:52:06] GM: Mm-hmm. Well, we're just having like a guest lecture series every other week, you know?
[00:52:11] TM: it's fantastic. I've learned so many things just editing this program every week.
[00:52:16] KM: Thanks, Tom. That's kind of a goal.
[00:52:18] TM: And I think one of the best qualities you have as an interviewer is the vulnerability of not being afraid to say, “I don't know what that is. Tell me what that is.” When they say something that doesn't register, it surprises you. Because I guarantee you, 50% of your listeners are saying the same thing, “I don't know what that is.” And then you ask the question, and it's the perfect wrap up.
[00:52:39] KM: I've always said, everybody around me, I am not particularly smart. I am just ambitious. Gray, over here, is crazy smart. Look at the size of his brain. Look at his head.
[00:52:50] GM: Excuse me.
[00:52:52] KM: He's got a big head and a big brain. He's always been smart. He can absorb and retain. I can ask him stuff. And you can tell when he talks, he's smart. I am not particularly smart. But I am ambitious.
[00:53:03] TM: Well, and you're a pleasure to listen to every week on this show too.
[00:53:05] KM: Thank you, Tom. I enjoy – You do a great job of editing. I wish people could hear how bad I really am.
[00:53:12] GM: Stuttering and things we do every week.
[00:53:14] TM: I hope you enjoyed this experience, because –
[00:53:16] KM: Who doesn’t love talking about themselves?
[00:53:18] TM: Now, there you go. That's what I think we're in for. All right. Love it. Thanks for being here to do this.
[00:53:25] KM: Thank you, Tom, for being game for everything I bring up.
[00:53:27] TM: Absolutely. It’s fun. I enjoyed doing it. In closing, everybody, of the Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy’s show, always, Kerry wants to spend time with you. She always hopes that you learned something. She always hopes that you're enlightened by it and that inspires your business, your independence and your life.
Kerry McCoy will be back again next week as the host of the program. It's Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy. Until next week. Do you want to say how you end the show?
[00:53:51] KM: Be brave, and keep it up.
[00:53:53] TM: That's perfect. Thanks.
[OUTRO]
[00:53:56] GM: You've been listening to up in your business with Kerry McCoy. For links to resources you heard discussed on today's show, go to flagandbanner.com, select radio show and choose today's guest. If you'd like to sponsor this show, or any show, email me, Gray, at gray@flagandbanner.com. All interviews are recorded and posted the following week. Stay informed of exciting upcoming guests by subscribing to our YouTube channel or podcast wherever you'd like to listen. Kerry's goal is simple, to help you live the American dream.
[END]
